The completely REASONABLE changes to the Dark Knight job thread

[MuzakFan]

I've been reading this subforum a lot over the past few days to gauge the playerbase's general thoughts on Dark Knight since launch. While I am fairly happy with the job we got in the expansion, there are many of you who don't think DRK is quite up to snuff with the other two tanking roles and have been offering up your suggestions as to how to buff it so it is. It's been nice reading your thoughts and I thank you for providing discussion. However, some of these suggestions either go too far and quickly go from DRK being slightly underpowered to pretty OP, or want to rework the class in such a way that the original design concept is lost. One thread even wants to turn DRK into its more classic FF incarnation of using HP-sacrificing moves. As much as I love what Dark Knight was in the older single player games, let's be reasonable: that sort of design concept would not work as a tank class in this game at all. Plus, I feel we should all have more trust in SE's job design so far. They're so close to nailing it with DRK that sweeping changes aren't needed at this point.

Really, in my opinion only 3-4 small tweaks are needed in order to make DRK a really great tank job. Even with its shortcomings now, it's nothing at all like 2.0 Warrior (remember when all Vengeance did was the 50 potency spikes damage? Those dark days are behind us, friends.) So in this thread I'll outline the three biggest buffs DRK should receive based on lots of reading and theorycrafting from the playerbase over the past week and my thoughts after having hit level 60, plus some less important wishlist items that I would like but aren't as necessary.

Three buffs that actually need to happen for DRK
1. Add a 10% boost to parry rate to Grit.
Reasoning: Grit is DRK's equivalent to Shield Oath: both give a flat -20% damage reduction and solid enmity boost. DRK already holds hate very easily when MT, so nothing should change about that aspect of the ability. The thing is, there are many of us who still find it a little too squishy due to the fact that we don't have the natural defensive boost that a shield provides. Paladins can also "double dip" with defensive procs since they are able to both parry and block with a shield. Adding a parry boost to Grit would solidify once and for all that parry is to DRK what shield is to PLD and that it will be our most important secondary stat to focus on. Parry is already a vital tool for DRK since we have two other off-GCD abilities that rely on it to trigger, this just cements it further. A 10% boost is also small enough that a shield still provides more defense since blocking strength scales with equipment level and parry does not.

What I don't want to see: Grit doesn't need to be an off-GCD ability like Defiance. We already have Darkside for that. Being able to swap freely between their DPS and tank stances is one of WAR's key strengths that the other two tanks don't need to encroach on. The only good reason DRK has to drop Grit while MT is for Blood Weapon, but buffing our other abilities to get MP back when Grit is on should make this unnecessary. Blood Weapon is obviously a tool for keeping up MP when OT, not MT.

2. Reduce the cooldown for Reprisal so that it can be kept up full time while MT.
Reasoning: Yeah, I straight up took this from the thread I linked earlier in the post. I didn't like the HP-sacrificing theme he was going for, but this one is a great suggestion. Currently, even if parry procs perfectly while DRK is tanking something, there's always that 10 second gap between when Reprisal falls off the boss and when it can be reapplied. That makes it completely unreliable as a mitigation debuff, certainly not as useful as Storm's Path or Rage of Halone combo. It's clear SE's intention was to make this move only useful with DRK MT and not OT. That's perfectly fine, actually, since we also bring Delirium to a raid group for debuffing magic attacks. Keeping the debuff duration the same 20s while reducing the cooldown from 30s to 15s provides a small 5s window where a parried attack can proc while it’s still up, allowing it to be refreshed and never falling off. It also retains that small element of random chance that's with the move currently, as it's still entirely possible that a proc won't trigger in that window, but ultimately making it far more reliable than it is now. With these changes, I feel it would also be acceptable to reduce the potency of the move from 210 to something like 150 since we'll have more opportunities to use it. These changes still prevent Reprisal from being used while OT, preserving the original intention of the ability.

3. Remove the 20% evasion bonus from Dark Arts boosted Dark Dance. Instead, have Dark Arts further boost parry rate to 50%.
Reasoning: An evasion boost by itself is a tricky stat to implement because it has the same problems as parry in that it's inherently an unreliable form of mitigation, whereas a flat percent damage taken down is consistent and easier to plan around for a raid group. Evasion is still more problematic for how Dark Knights work in this game because we actually depend more on parries and getting hit rather than dodging for our other abilities to work. Low Blows, Reprisal, and Blood Price greatly drop in effectiveness when we are not getting hit in order to trigger a parry proc or get MP back. It was an odd choice for Dark Arts to boost Dark Dance's evasion rate because absolutely none of our other abilities work in sync with evasion. Having DA further boost Dark Dance's parry bonus, while still being more unreliable than Shadow Skin or even the constant mitigation of Foresight (lol), would actually make this an incredibly powerful mitigation tool that works well with DRK's other abilities. A 30% boost is already good when not boosted, but now we have a great reason to spend our MP on it to make it even better.

What I don't want to see: Dark Dance's parry rate should not exceed 50% even when boosted because it 1) is now too similar to WAR's Raw Intuition, and 2) is technically better than Raw Intuition since it does not share in the latter's inherent risks (100% parry on attacks from the front but 100% crit hits from the back) and it is on a shorter cooldown. Dark Dance should always be a physical only skill in the same vein as Foresight or Bulwark, and not another flat x% damage down.


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If any or all of these boosts are added to Dark Knight or something like them, it should go a long way in addressing our problems with the job currently. Additionally, I have a wishlist of buffs that I'd like to see but aren't as necessary to implement:

1. Make Delirium completely interchangeable with Monk's Dragon Kick, or tweak this move in some other way to make it unique to Dark Knight.
Reasoning: I feel that raid groups running Dark Knight and Monk are being punished for this versatility that isn't present in other job combos due to the way Delirium works. Currently, this move doesn't provide a blunt resistance debuff that is present in Dragon Kick, meaning that MNK will still need to use DK as part of their regular rotation since it boosts their damage. Delirium also can't overwrite Dragon Kick while DK overwrites Delirium. Meaning if I as DRK notice DK is going to fade in the next 5s it is still better for me to use a Soul Eater combo over Delirium combo because I won't be able to refresh the debuff. This does nothing but disincentivize tanks from running DRK with raid content if MNK is present, while still giving too much importance to MNK's role in raid progression groups. Delirium and DK need to be interchangeable in the same vein as Storm's Eye and Dancing Edge are interchangeable. Delirium should give a blunt resistance down effect in addition to the -10% INT debuff, while also being able to overwrite DK. This will allow Monk to give responsibility for the debuff to DRK while they choose a higher potency move in their rotation. If SE doesn't want to go this route because it makes MNK too strong (Bootshine auto crits all day), then Delirium should be changed so that it gives some other unique debuff that is not shared by any other job.

2. Carve and Spit should give back more MP than it currently does when not boosted with Dark Arts.
Reasoning: Carve and Spit is actually still a decent ability as it stands now since the cooldown is only 60s, but I was still underwhelmed with it given that it only restores as much MP as a comboed Syphon Strike. For a level 60 ability, it should do more than it does. In fact, I'm not fully convinced that it's not bugged in some way, given that the tooltip for this ability specifically says "Delivers a threefold attack." Tooltips don't generally put fluff descriptions like that unless it directly hints at the mechanics of what the ability does. CaS would more or less solve DRK's problems with running out of MP while MT if it gave back at least double the MP it does now - that would essentially provide a "free" Dark Arts boost every 60s, making it sort of DRK's equivalent of WAR's Infuriate.

3. Reword the damn tooltips.
Reasoning: Going off what I mentioned about the tooltip for Carve and Spit, some of the tooltips for DRK's abilities are highly ambiguous currently. Though it's been fixed now, the description for Sole Survivor at launch made it seem like this was a debuff we placed on our party members we expected to die, not a mob. It actually works much like Mercy Stroke but with a lot more room for error.

There are other problems, too: the tooltip for Living Dead makes it seem like the Dark Knight must be healed to full health when the effect triggers, when actually the Zombie debuff will fade as long as 100% of the DRK's max health is healed over the 10s window. It actually works like this:
- DRK has 10k max health, activates Living Dead and gets HP reduced to 1 by an attack.
- Walking Dead triggers and has a 10s duration.
- The DRK is healed to 8k but then gets attacked again, reducing health to 5k.
- The DRK now only needs a 2k heal for Walking Dead to fade, since 8k + 2k = 10k health. The DRK does not need to be topped off at any point in order to not be KO'd by the ability, only that they receive heals equivalent to their max HP during the 10s window.

Finally, there's a lot of ambiguity as to how Darkside effects MP refresh that is not properly explained in the tooltip. It's obvious that Ballad or Bishop promotion would not affect the DRK while Darkside is active. However, ethers work fine when this is up. The biggest issue is that it's not clear how other MP abilities work with Darkside, namely AST's card buff Ewer (reduces MP cost by 20%). Based on how this ability works, it should stack with Darkside, but misconceptions are already popping up that need to be addressed by SE. Rewording the tooltip to make this less ambiguous will be a big help as to how other jobs interact with DRK.

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Thanks for reading all this and I'd like to hear your comments and discussion. I chose to create a new thread for this topic rather than piggyback off of existing threads because many other posters were going too far with buffing DRK when all it needed were some very slight boosts in order to reach the same level as the two other tanks.

[Zyph]

Agree with everything wholeheartly. Especially Dark Dance, I don't understand wtf they were doing with the evasion boost seeing as how DRK is very parry proc dependent.

I'd add maybe one or two little things but then this wouldn't the reasonable thread anymore.

[Keisatsu]

Love it, love every suggestion here, personally I have one of my own but it may not be seen as "reasonable" and it's more of an "I wish we had this" if anything.

Other than my personal wish, I wholeheartedly support this and hope we get these changes. (Especially the tooltips one x____x)

[Xyphon]

I'd like to see delirium lower the magic defense of the enemy. I think that follows the same logic of DRK's being the mage killers that they always were

That would also allow another utility for DRK's in raids as either MT or OT.

Otherwise, the suggested changes sound quite reasonable to me ^^.

[TouchandFeel]

To be fair, what is considered reasonable is highly subjective but I do agree that the discussions have at least vocally (strange to use the term for text but whatever) been very polarized with very aggressive and somewhat extreme stances on both sides. Yay, the internet.

Personally I feel my suggestions made in another thread were very reasonable and while slightly more extensive, they have a lot in common with your suggestions.

I'm not going to quote them here due to length but will provide a link to that thread.
It's at the bottom of the page.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...60#post3071060

Oh and definitely agree on the clarification on the ability tooltips.

[Xenosan]

I'm fine with C&S only giving Syphon's amount of MP returns IF that effect remains whilst buffing with Dark Arts. It doesn't make sense having a buff to an ability penalize it's use.

I said about the same in another thread: Warrior doesn't have to choose between Berserk giving +50% Attack Power or a +1 Wrath/Abandon stack.

As for mitigation changes, I'm not so sure we want more lolParry tank. With that sort of meta DRK will never be on par with PLD/WAR. Need a different mitigation route IMO.

What's lacking is an at-need mitigation ability. PLD has Shield/Shelltron, WAR Inner Beast. Souleater's HP absorb just doesn't hold up to the former. Which is why I think adding a Galvanize additional effect to the Soul Devourer Job Trait (lvl48) would be perfect.

HP absorbed via Souleater that exceeds player's max Health is converted into a magical barrier (Doom Spikes)

Stand on the highest mountain of the Hinterlands and scream this so SE hears

Spot on agree with Delirium

[Stormsoul]

+1, agree with all of this. additionally, i'd like to see Dark Passenger's MP cost reduced or removed, and Dark Arts Souleater to be stronger defensively. Dark Arts feels about right to me on pretty much every ability it alters except souleater while tanking. i feel that it really needs to grant a bigger heal or a shield, something extra in the defensive department. i cast DA on souleater while tanking and it just feels.. meh.

[Zyph]

HP absorbed via Souleater that exceeds player's max Health is converted into a magical barrier (Doom Spikes)

How often does that happen though, really? Seems like something that would only really benefit on fights where the healers are experienced enough to expect big hits and have topped you off with Aldo or the shield version of Benefic, and completely useless in all other cases. That would make the shield effect extremely situational.

Though I do agree, it feels like we're missing an Inner Beast of sorts. (Though personally I hate the way Inner Beast works and would rather have a Sheltron type skill)

[Arkenne]

Also about the tooltips.

Darkside says "MP is slowly drained" but in reality its never ticking your MP down even while in combat. All it does is kill your passive MP recovery.

[Zyph]

Also about the tooltips.

Darkside says "MP is slowly drained" but in reality its never ticking your MP down even while in combat. All it does is kill your passive MP recovery.

This is not true. If I don't keep up with Blood Price or Syphon Strike and only use the Power Slash combo I still find my MP is draining, despite not using Dark Arts or Dark Passenger. It happens even out of combat, it's just your out of combat MP recovery results in a net gain of MP, just at a slower rate.