Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[Hyrist]

1.0 was a rather different game than the one we started playing at 2.0. It's good they changed it even from that.

Never neglect your history. Period.

Sure, and then you go right back into standing in one position to benefit from flank or back attack bonuses for each step of your combo. Even for the most part Jumps are weaved between GCD.

Optimally, sure. But most fights aren't dummy practices, a lot of the times our jumps can close distances that keep our DPS uptimes. Others, using it animation locks us and kills us. Situational awareness in our mobility spikes and dips are very important to using Dragoon properly. If we're stationary, we're dead.

Not entirely so, given your reasons above.

This isn't a game of horeshoes, when you hinge your argument on teh fact that Dragoons are stationary, and they're proven to be not, you've got the wrong approach. If you can't stay still on a Doll and get optimum DPS, then you're not a standing still job. No melee, not even Dragoon, can do that, and Dragoons never could.

Talk of 1.0 is redundant,

It's never redundant. Without the lessons learned in 1.0 we would not have a Realm Reborn. 1.23 was beginning of the evolution towards the game we have now, and a proof of concept of the job, combo, and positional mechanics in relation to them. And it was a successful proof of concept, but it had flaws that did not hold up in the faster-paced gameplay we have now.

and the job still benefits much more from doing their skillchains from specific positions, especially considering the jumps are not a continuous source of DPs like the weaponskills. They are great additions to the dragoons arsenal, to be sure,

FYI, with Blood of the Dragon and Spirit Surge tops off higher than full thrust/Phlebotomize. In fact, a rather sizable portion of our damage comes from our oGDC attacks and it becomes the measuring stick between a competent Dragoon and a great one - so we fully agree here. What I want you to keep in mind here is our level 60 skill. It is a 10 second off GDC attack that deducts 10 seconds from the buff that opens these two skills you're calling into question.

but skillchains, dealt out in the proper positions are where their DPS has always been, from using Heavy Thrust and the Full Thrust at the flank, and Chaos Thrust from the back while applying debuffs.

Correction - Full Thrust is not a flank attack and can be executed from the rear which has a lower accuracy check. Heavy Thrust is our flank attack for added potency and the combo into Ring of Thorns.

Dragoon is certainly a more straightforward job than something like monk that requires as much weaving back and forth as it does, but they're benefits are great when utilizing positions.

Yes, and no. Monk's positionals in the long term are more punishing to be certain. But the only requirement is that the attacks are done sequentially in order to preserve Greased Lightning. In this respect they are similar. However Monk's buff is reliant on their cycle, and the only skill truely unlocked by it is a flat damage dump that completely clears the buff. Ours is a balancing act between taking away and adding to the buff.

Both of our stances benefit from completing our cycle of attacks, both of us get benefits from utilizing our positional properly. It's our off-global-cool downs that define us, as well as how we rotate our positionals.

For example, Monk's combos are universal, the skills in them are broken down into categories. This means their 'flank' and 'rear' attacks are completely based off of what effect they want out of them at that time, and the skills are fairly exchangeable, even if the optimum rotation is not.

Until recently, Dragoon's were completely rigid, with no variance in our combos what so ever, merely the order of what combo we do. More on this later.

Even if positions are nearly as important to a dragoon, like you would suggest, the fact that we were given positional finishers via Blood of the Dragon was more than enough, a randomized proc mechanic is unnecessary and doesn't do anything other than become an annoyance. There's literally no good point to it being in place.

Two points you attempt in this.

The first is subjective, what you find as an 'annoyance' I find as enhanced game-play. I enjoy having a reactive positional in my rotation, as it makes the base rotation now seem less dull. And now that the punishment mechanic has been reduced, I feel as if the only thing missing is a bit of further uniqueness to the concept.

As far as 'there is no point' - that's because you're viewing Dragoon in a vacuum. Right now, Dragoon stands as quite possibly the highest DPS in the melee category, with good combat utility now with the AoE Crit buff and the added value of critical hits. But one of the points of the class in its 50 Era was that it did the low-end of comparable damage in trade for its simplicity. Now that we're on the high end of damage, complexity had to be added to compensate for this. Put bluntly, we goth better damage to go with our higher skill ceiling.

Now, while still remaining unique in how it is applies, we have similar variance in our rotation as to a monk for optimal damage. We also have stance maintenance for optimal damage. All the standard DPS difficulties that would qualify us as on the same play-skill level as the other classes have been given to us, as well as a bridge in the gap of power.

And you call it a 'punishment'. I highly disagree. Sure, at level 58 we got a skill that nets, at that level, as a difficulty spike. That's fine, our power spikes fairly hard with Fang and Claw, and the separation between Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust makes sense from the perspective of teaching a Dragoon the level 60 mechanics of the class gradually.

It's fairly easy to understand when you map it out from a developer standpoint.

52: We solve the problem of Raid utility by adding a party wide buff this spikes the value of Dragoon fairly high and gives them a new buff to play with rotationally.
54: Heres another buff. This one right now is just the base 15 Second buff, teaching you the value it has to your jumps (That first Crit BotD/SS Jump is a tasty experience.) It shows you that you WANT this buff for jumps and spikes your performance again.
56: This is our large spike. Not only do we get access to an additional high potency combo skill, but now an ability to maintain that buff from our 54 skill that gave us that juicy jump damage.
58:, what you call a punishment, I call a balance check. We're already high on performance spikes from 4 of our skills. Here, we suffer the same balance check, and are taught how we're expected to do our rotation at 60. We now have positional variance in our rotations, our skill check finally meets all the bonuses we've previously gotten.
60: The last piece of the puzzle, and the last bit of difficulty we receive, but it comes tied in with the last spike in our performance. An amazing skill that does variable damage directly on how skilled and situationally aware we are in a fight. We have been taught how to manage our rotation, been given power and complexity to match our melee companions, and now we have a defining trait that gives us even more situational variance.

You complain at the level 58 skill, but you forget that meanwhile, classes like Summoner have had to deal with updates at level 54 like Ruin 3, which is completely useless to them when they acquire it. It's a punishment to even use that skill when you get it - and I've not seen threads of complaining summoners that they had to wait 2 levels to use it properly.

So no. I reiterate, your approach to the job is incorrect from the intended designer perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, of course - but given what I've seen and taken away from the designs of the Jobs progressions as a whole, I can't agree that Wheeling Thrust in particular is any worse than the 'downer' skills many jobs have gotten in one of their own quests - nor is it wrong in its overall approach.

[Syrus_Draco]

TL;RD - DRG is just fine/Change your perspective/Don't make excuses

You are my hero. Everyone take a good read at this person's post. Seriously.

Hyrist does a great job in putting everything in an objective perspective as to why these changes to DRG are not flaws

[Guilty_King]

I just hit 58. The positional is not a problem at all. It is actually really easy and makes the class so much more fun. To all of you bitching about it not helping Dragoons, remember we are top dps right now. So chill out, or find a new class.

[TWOxACROSS]

Thing here is folks are treating the whole RNG of the 4th positional like it's gambling at Vegas.

It's a 50-50 chance ONE of them will pop.

Other jobs like BLM, BRD, even WHM have such low RNG percents. SCH and SMN also experience this with crit procs for their pets as well as their own damage. So when put things on a macro perpsective, you put DRG's 50-50 proc ratio against all other jobs, it seems very very trivial. Moving slightly to the left or slightly to the right isn't such a difficult thing to do, even with some melee mechs from the boss.

Everyone is seeing the potency and procs as a cup half empty that is punishes players. I'd offer, see it as a cup half full and that these procs reward for greater dps. Do other jobs not get punished for not being vigilant on their own mechanics and procs? SMN dots fall, BLM procs, etc etc

Keep in mind, I myself don't see it as some sort of punishment, and I don't quite see how it could be a such a thing. I just think it's a needless complication of a great new mechanic for dragoons, as if incentivizing keeping Blood of the Dragon up for the finishers and Geirskogul wasn't already a perfectly fine addition of complexity.
With other procs, it's supposed to be for balance, to ensure that we're not nuking everything too quickly, but with dragoon, they want us to use the finishers, but why don't they want us to choose which one we want to do? Seriously, that is the burning question. Why does the "either or" mechanic even exist? What purpose is it serving? Why does it not matter what finisher that I'm going for? Why is that bit of agency taken from the player?

Never neglect your history. Period.

Not neglecting it at all, it just has no bearing on how things are now, least of all the contention of this silly 50/50 mechanic.

Optimally, sure. But most fights aren't dummy practices, a lot of the times our jumps can close distances that keep our DPS uptimes. Others, using it animation locks us and kills us. Situational awareness in our mobility spikes and dips are very important to using Dragoon properly. If we're stationary, we're dead.

Yeah, and I don't deny that. I mean in a perfect instance, when not dodging AoEs like a maniac, that's what dragoons do; set up a position and unload, while monks dance around the enemy during their combo. However, the entire point is that people are all "Wull, monks do it all the time, stop complaining" when it doesn't matter one lick what another class does, because dragoon doesn't, and as shown from the E3 build, they didn't even need to have this silly 50/50 mechanic, and it's still a mystery why it exists in the first place.

Heck, before you hit 58, you even have a more consistent version of the mechanic when there is no Wheeling Thrust on the proc table.

This isn't a game of horeshoes, when you hinge your argument on teh fact that Dragoons are stationary, and they're proven to be not, you've got the wrong approach. If you can't stay still on a Doll and get optimum DPS, then you're not a standing still job. No melee, not even Dragoon, can do that, and Dragoons never could.

I never said that they stick in one place forever like a black mage or something :/ I said that dragoons pick a position, and unload the skillchain from that position, obviously you then change when necessary. The point is spelling the difference between the monk who dances around during their combo, and the dragoon that unloads from one position. Position here meaning, flank or rear, not like "I'm gonna hunker down right here and do what I gotta do." Maybe that's the confusion?

Correction - Full Thrust is not a flank attack and can be executed from the rear which has a lower accuracy check. Heavy Thrust is our flank attack for added potency and the combo into Ring of Thorns.

I just mean that performing the Full Thrust combo is best from the flank. I was told that it was better to attack from there, so if I was misinformed, then...rawr :/

Two points you attempt in this.

The first is subjective, what you find as an 'annoyance' I find as enhanced game-play. I enjoy having a reactive positional in my rotation, as it makes the base rotation now seem less dull. And now that the punishment mechanic has been reduced, I feel as if the only thing missing is a bit of further uniqueness to the concept.

If you find the rotation to be overly dull, that's really on you, and it isn't exactly the dev's job to make in move lively, least of all by complicating it. However, can you give a legitimate mechanical reason for why the Blood of the Dragon finishers need to be on a 50/50 proc? It's completely baffling that they made such a change.

And you call it a 'punishment'. I highly disagree.

Hey now, I'm with you. I never said that it was a punishment. I think that's going way too far. I just think the 50/50 proc is annoying and unnecessary. I find both Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust to be great skills for whatever position you are in, but...that it takes the agency away from me is what makes me a little sour.

[Hyrist]

I just mean that performing the Full Thrust combo is best from the flank. I was told that it was better to attack from there, so if I was misinformed, then...rawr :/

The corner, always the corner between flank and rear if you're trying to find the optimal position on the mob. If you're unsure if you're above the accuracy requirement, stay on the rear end of that unless absolutely necessary not to be.

If you find the rotation to be overly dull, that's really on you, and it isn't exactly the dev's job to make in move lively, least of all by complicating it. However, can you give a legitimate mechanical reason for why the Blood of the Dragon finishers need to be on a 50/50 proc? It's completely baffling that they made such a change.

See but turn what you just said on its head. If you find the randomized positional baffling, annoying and unnecessary, that's also on you, and it's not the Dev's job to make mechanics you 100% agree with.

As far as a reason. I just gave you one. It's a skillcheck. Everything from cooldowns to Geirskogul timers can be predicted. We even know the approximate ideal gateway timer for when it's 'ok' to use Geriskogul in rotation (21 seconds when you use your 4th skill.) The randomization is meant to get you to think on your feet, to react to more than just fight mechanics and a set rotation. Because after 3 skills of just flat out buffing the job in massive ways, we needed a balance component.

Hey now, I'm with you. I never said that it was a punishment. I think that's going way too far. I just think the 50/50 proc is annoying and unnecessary. I find both Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust to be great skills for whatever position you are in, but...that it takes the agency away from me is what makes me a little sour.

As far as agency goes. I can't agree with you there. We never really had much agency to begin with, and now we have more. We have an optimal rotation, and have always had one. It's how we modify that rotation to fit into context of fights that we gain our agency. The 4th Combo doesn't take away from that. In fact, it gives us another moment in time where we have to take agency and decide to take a potency hit and maintain location, or the possible rotation hit to move.

It's all a matter of perspective. Anyways. If you haven't. I highly recommend you get 60. It feels much better in game than it reads on paper.

[Syrus_Draco]

with dragoon, they want us to use the finishers, but why don't they want us to choose which one we want to do? Seriously, that is the burning question. Why does the "either or" mechanic even exist? What purpose is it serving? Why does it not matter what finisher that I'm going for? Why is that bit of agency taken from the player?

If the player was given a choice between the two WS, one would see more use than the other, potentially no use at all. Then folks will complain that they never use that one WS and it should be replaced with something else. Having an expectation that DRG should be played a certain way will set you up for failure. The rotation is still vaguely same, the core mechanics are still the same, throwing in these extra abilities/WS with a single 50-50 proc chance isn't a game breaking thing. But if it's a stresser that you can't deal with and wont accept then it's just a self fulfilling prophecy of disappointment.

[broren]

it is a gigantic stressor that I knew would happen as soon as they announced and explained the new abilities. I tried running a few dungeons as dragoon today and... I still hate it. It's just unnecessary complexity that takes away from paying attention to the game and messing up your rotations and cooldowns and paying attention to mechanics because "better not let blood of the dragon fall off".

I'm done with dragoon except in high level roulette. at least i can have less stress and more fun with my favorite class there.

[Fynlar]

I just hit DRG 58, did the quest, and tested out the new ability... and it also left me thinking "wait a second... did I just get *nerfed* by actually being diligent and doing my job quest, here?" Decided to do a search to see if anyone thought similarly, and here I am.

This is pretty blatant ability bloat that doesn't serve any purpose but to waste a slot on my crossbar and (edit: okay, so you can actually get around this bit by combining both actions into one macro, but still... very icky solution) cause me to have to actually pay attention to which buff I get after Full/Chaos, with zero potential upsides. I concur with the OP here; this is the first (and only?) time in the game where I literally felt punished for unlocking a new ability, which is a big problem. People talk a lot of smack about BRD's Minuet, but at least there they have the option to get it and still just not use it and pretend like it doesn't exist, if they so choose. DRGs are not even given that luxury.

Simple adjustment they could (and probably will) make here: just make it so that Full/Chaos gives us access to both abilities, so we can choose either one. It still makes for a very boring design for our level 58 ability (it still does the same damn thing as Fang and Claw) but at least then it wouldn't outright punish the player via randomness.

Seriously, what do people want? Another debuff? DoT? A different potency? Another support ability so that either of the abilities pros 100% of the time so you know where to be?

Anything other than an almost 100% carbon copy ability that adds RNG to the job for *zero benefit* if you're attentive and a DPS loss if you're not would have been dandy.

What's there now just screams lazy design.

[Leonus]

stuff

Drgs can pretend BotD doesn't exist, just like brds that don't like WM.

You just loose access to your gated abilities.

You aren't being punished by being forced to pay attention to receive your reward. If the two abilities were still 50/50 and one attack was better than the other, people would complain.

The attacks do the same thing, so people complain.

Could have gotten a new utility ability, then other jobs would complain that drg has too much utility.

If you got to choose between the two abilities everytime, people would complain.

I have come to the conclusion that theses forums are full of people that only really complain. It is disheartening.

[whiskeybravo]

I got 60 DRG over this last weekend and been farming alex to gear up this week. It's really not that bad until you need to hit the skill speed requirement for the new rotation. While I don't necessarily like the fact we got 2 of the same abilities, I think they actually did a pretty good job implementing it. For example, you can't accidentally hit the wrong one. It would be much much worse if you could accidentally hit the wrong one and screw up the whole combo. The blue and red icons are distinct visual cues and after seeing them a couple hundred times you can tell just by a glance which position you need to move towards. Blood of the dragoon as a whole kind of reminds of a monk perfect balance opener, it adds a timing mechanic similar to what monk and nin have to manage.

That being said, my biggest learning curve has been reprogramming my fingers to do the new rotation. I find myself wanting to hit Phleb after CT and HT after FT nearly every time. It doesn't help too much that you have to do the old rotation if BotD falls off for whatever reason. Balancing 2 different rotations and optimizing geirskogul usage w/ BotD timer is much more difficult than getting used to Wheeling/Fang RNG proc. Is it a weak reward? A little.. Punishment, though? Hardly.