Dragoon Punished at lvl 58 - What needs to be done with Wheeling Thrust

[TWOxACROSS]

I'd offer that it made the job a little less stale and interesting. DRGs always had at the least two positionals to deal with. Throwing one extra wasn't going to make or break the bank.

That's the thing, it's not "extra," the entire Blood of the Dragon and the finishers are extra, but randomizing which finisher you get is unnecessarily forcing a shift in the playstyle because ?????. The positionals we deal with are what they are, but we don't move like monks need to.

If the melee are not suppose to mimic one another, then remove positionals from both DRG and NIN. If range dps shouldn't be alike, then either BRD or MCH need to remove their attachment for something else.

I'm talking about forced homogeneity, positionals are a part of the melee classes because it's an overall game mechanic, but monks are the ones with positional weaving as their playstyle, while ninjas have their ninjutsu patterns, and dragoons sit in one spot and unload skillchains and jumps. Forcing a change in playstyle simply to keep up with the new potency options just isn't right in this situation, it was good enough to give dragoons a buff to keep up for finishers.

And I'm not whinging that it's too hard, because it's not. It's just incredibly stupid and unintuitive to have a different position's finisher proc. Especially stupid when it was just the way it should have been back at E3.

[karateorangutang]

I'm talking about forced homogeneity, positionals are a part of the melee classes because it's an overall game mechanic, but monks are the ones with positional weaving as their playstyle, while ninjas have their ninjutsu patterns, and dragoons sit in one spot and unload skillchains and jumps. Forcing a change in playstyle simply to keep up with the new potency options just isn't right in this situation, it was good enough to give dragoons a buff to keep up for finishers.

First off, I'd like to see if function how it did at e3 too.

On the subject of homogenizing DPS jobs. It seems to me that if they removed the positionals on those movements they would either have to lower the potencies on them significantly, or up the potencies on other job's positionals to keep the balance of the melee DPS going. If you remove the positional abilities from the DRG's rotation it becomes easier to attain optimal dps in almost any situation. That makes it more valuable than other dps classes. To balance this they would have to counter it with a nerf to the potential damage of DRG or increase the potential damage of the classes that do utilize positionals.

I honestly like the positionals that DRG gained. It makes the job more tense and exciting for me, but I also enjoy monk.... so yeah. Adjusting the positionals now though would be a slippery road for SE.

[Syrus_Draco]

That's the thing, it's not "extra," the entire Blood of the Dragon and the finishers are extra, but randomizing which finisher you get is unnecessarily forcing a shift in the playstyle because ?????. The positionals we deal with are what they are, but we don't move like monks need to.

Not too different with the ones we have, HT and CT, due to the fact that we have knowledge where we should be in position for the bonus damage. Having the player paying attention to a SINGLE proc in their rotation to move to the correct position does not feel like a drastic heavy change. The biggest change is being able to maintain Blood of the Dragon and when to use GK. That is where I find the strong challenge lies, not in "I'm missing 100 potency due to reasons"

There's plenty of drgs running around that don't give two shits of positionals and do HT and CT in any direction.

[TWOxACROSS]

First off, I'd like to see if function how it did at e3 too.

On the subject of homogenizing DPS jobs. It seems to me that if they removed the positionals on those movements they would either have to lower the potencies on them significantly, or up the potencies on other job's positionals to keep the balance of the melee DPS going. If you remove the positional abilities from the DRG's rotation it becomes easier to attain optimal dps in almost any situation. That makes it more valuable than other dps classes. To balance this they would have to counter it with a nerf to the potential damage of DRG or increase the potential damage of the classes that do utilize positionals.
I honestly like the positionals that DRG gained. It makes the job more tense and exciting for me, but I also enjoy monk.... so yeah. Adjusting the positionals now though would be a slippery road for SE.

I would consider trying to keep Blood of the Dragon up to use the finishers is where the balance in damage lies, just in the same way monks need to keep Greased Lightning up. Obviously there's using the positional bonuses to great effect for greater damage output, but monk and dragoon utilize positions in a different way, and dragoons just don't need to have such a random mechanic at the core of their already new mechanic. It's not even to say that they should remove the positional bonuses, because that's where dragoon's utility lies - in knowing where you should use what skillchain for the most damage, it's just the randomization that forces the player to move is so utterly unnecessary and does nothing but get in the way. You might find it exciting, and that's fine for you to feel, but mechanically it just makes zero sense, it's a terribly designed hindrance. There's already more than enough in the game to waste a combo's proc duration, we don't need one built into their newest mechanic :/

Not too different with the ones we have, HT and CT, due to the fact that we have knowledge where we should be in position for the bonus damage. Having the player paying attention to a SINGLE proc in their rotation to move to the correct position does not feel like a drastic heavy change. The biggest change is being able to maintain Blood of the Dragon and when to use GK. That is where I find the strong challenge lies, not in "I'm missing 100 potency due to reasons"

There's plenty of drgs running around that don't give two shits of positionals and do HT and CT in any direction.

Certainly, it isn't too different from Heavy Thrust and the like, but where it does differ is the problem. It's not that it's too hard, it's that it's stupid, and unintuitive, like, hey! Remember when Shoulder Tackle, your one and only stun move needed to be done from a distance, despite the urgency of its use 98% of the time being while you're right next to the target, where a monk needs to be to even deal damage? It was dumb, and they finally changed the skill to work from any distance, not just from a certain distance away. This is what I'm getting at, it's a totally unnecessary element to the skills, and it's even worse because the finishers already have an element that requires more awareness.

And why should you just be okay with plenty of dragoons who don't care? You sit here and tell me "Wull, learn your class and git gud" but then wave off the entire reality of those who just don't care to "git gud." Perhaps they don't care because they realize how stupid of a mechanic it was to put in place in the first place.

[Hyrist]

I'm talking about forced homogeneity, positionals are a part of the melee classes because it's an overall game mechanic, but monks are the ones with positional weaving as their playstyle, while ninjas have their ninjutsu patterns, and dragoons sit in one spot and unload skillchains and jumps.

That's never been the case.

In 1.23 you had to move to land your positional to continue your combos. That trait continued throughout most of the 2.0 series, until they got rid of the positional requierment for combos, and instead instilled bonus damage for doing positionals.

Dragoon has NEVER been about sitting still. Jump allowed you to attack at father distance and return to your original position. Dragonfire Dive and Spineshatter Dive brings you to target position, and is perfect for gap closers too in the right time of location.

So you're really wrong about your approach to the job. Dragoon is more straight forward than the other jobs, sure, but it was never without positionals in one shape or form. I can't speak for E3, but I know I like how the gameplay on the class works right now. All I want is tweaks to the two skills to differentiate them. Something small like one inflicts a small duration bleed while the other poison, or the two alternates different kinds of vulnerability that the party can capitalize on. Nothing that differentiates them in a manner that causes us to curse the RNG part of this gameplay.

At this point, that's all I'm asking for. If you haven't leveled the class to 60 yet, I recommend you do so. It really isn't as bad as it seems on paper, especially with GK

[TWOxACROSS]

That's never been the case.

In 1.23 you had to move to land your positional to continue your combos. That trait continued throughout most of the 2.0 series, until they got rid of the positional requierment for combos, and instead instilled bonus damage for doing positionals.

1.0 was a rather different game than the one we started playing at 2.0. It's good they changed it even from that.

Dragoon has NEVER been about sitting still. Jump allowed you to attack at father distance and return to your original position. Dragonfire Dive and Spineshatter Dive brings you to target position, and is perfect for gap closers too in the right time of location.

Sure, and then you go right back into standing in one position to benefit from flank or back attack bonuses for each step of your combo. Even for the most part Jumps are weaved between GCD.

So you're really wrong about your approach to the job. Dragoon is more straight forward than the other jobs, sure, but it was never without positionals in one shape or form.

Not entirely so, given your reasons above. Talk of 1.0 is redundant, and the job still benefits much more from doing their skillchains from specific positions, especially considering the jumps are not a continuous source of DPs like the weaponskills. They are great additions to the dragoons arsenal, to be sure, but skillchains, dealt out in the proper positions are where their DPS has always been, from using Heavy Thrust and the Full Thrust at the flank, and Chaos Thrust from the back while applying debuffs.

Dragoon is certainly a more straightforward job than something like monk that requires as much weaving back and forth as it does, but they're benefits are great when utilizing positions. Even if positions are nearly as important to a dragoon, like you would suggest, the fact that we were given positional finishers via Blood of the Dragon was more than enough, a randomized proc mechanic is unnecessary and doesn't do anything other than become an annoyance. There's literally no good point to it being in place.

[Syrus_Draco]

This is what I'm getting at, it's a totally unnecessary element to the skills, and it's even worse because the finishers already have an element that requires more awareness.

1) So you're saying that the fact that these new skills, that require a little more awareness from the player, that propose a new challenge and a new skill ceiling in which players must learn and adjust to, is a problem? When you play a game is it a problem that you're given new skills, new things to learn, new combos to execute, new ways of defeating enemies, and you have LEARN and ADAPT in order to beat the game? That sort of scaling difficulty is what keeps the game and/or job from getting stale and exciting

[Syrus_Draco]

And why should you just be okay with plenty of dragoons who don't care? You sit here and tell me "Wull, learn your class and git gud" but then wave off the entire reality of those who just don't care to "git gud." Perhaps they don't care because they realize how stupid of a mechanic it was to put in place in the first place.

2) So because a person thinks that "this new skill is dumb and I refuse to adapt to it" it's an okay reason to just completely ignore or not give two shits about? IMHO sounds like a childish way to approach it. I dislike Gauss barrel on MCH GREATLY but I still trying to learn how to make it work. If these changes are so upsetting there are easier jobs to play like PLD. But in either case, the devs have given the lowest common detonator a helping hand with the recent buff to the two procs.

[TWOxACROSS]

1) So you're saying that the fact that these new skills, that require a little more awareness from the player, that propose a new challenge and a new skill ceiling in which players must learn and adjust to, is a problem? When you play a game is it a problem that you're given new skills, new things to learn, new combos to execute, new ways of defeating enemies, and you have LEARN and ADAPT in order to beat the game? That sort of scaling difficulty is what keeps the game and/or job from getting stale and exciting

Everything up until making which finisher you get randomized is fine, they are great additions to the class. But the finishers being randomized is unnecessary, what possible logical reason could it be for existing other than some half-brained way to try and lower the dragoon's DPS? It would have been better to leave the potency at 100 and ensure a backstab chain procs Wheeling Thrust to incentivize their proper use than buff the base potency and leave the silly RNG in.

You can extol the virtues of adaptation and new challenges all you want, but a positional finisher given via RNG isn't a challenge in any meaningful way, because it's random and just tries to take you by surprise. It's like...jump scares in horror movies, they're dumb and have very little actual lasting value.

2) So because a person thinks that "this new skill is dumb and I refuse to adapt to it" it's an okay reason to just completely ignore or not give two shits about? IMHO sounds like a childish way to approach it. I dislike Gauss barrel on MCH GREATLY but I still trying to learn how to make it work. If these changes are so upsetting there are easier jobs to play like PLD. But in either case, the devs have given the lowest common detonator a helping hand with the recent buff to the two procs.

It's not okay, I didn't say that. The fact that people are willing to just drop the thing entirely means that something is wrong with the skill, when there are those who don't use it, and those who are greatly annoyed with how it works. They want us to utilize and find importance in each skill in our toolkit, right? They've done something wrong when people are wholly content to just ignore it.

And hey, I dislike the RNG mechanic, but I'm still enjoying the rest of Blood of the Dragon and the finishers. It just annoys me to high heaven that the RNG is part of it, it has absolutely zero actual value, and just feels like a cheap addition to try and add a shallow sense of challenge, but spoilers it's not challenging, it's just annoying. Even more so to know that they had it right during E3. I don't know who it is at Square that thinks so much RNG is so great, but they really gotta get their gambling addiction under control, it's seeping into their work.

[Syrus_Draco]

Thing here is folks are treating the whole RNG of the 4th positional like it's gambling at Vegas.

It's a 50-50 chance ONE of them will pop.

Other jobs like BLM, BRD, even WHM have such low RNG percents. SCH and SMN also experience this with crit procs for their pets as well as their own damage. So when put things on a macro perpsective, you put DRG's 50-50 proc ratio against all other jobs, it seems very very trivial. Moving slightly to the left or slightly to the right isn't such a difficult thing to do, even with some melee mechs from the boss.

Everyone is seeing the potency and procs as a cup half empty that is punishes players. I'd offer, see it as a cup half full and that these procs reward for greater dps. Do other jobs not get punished for not being vigilant on their own mechanics and procs? SMN dots fall, BLM procs, etc etc