Estinien (spoilers)

[saber_alter]

As for Nidhogg, I think Midguardsormir's lamentation over his madness proves just how desperately he needs to be put down for good. Only this time we need to aim for his Heart instead of his Eyes.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that, though i have little doubt it will. might even take the remaining members of Midgarsormer's children to bring him down now Nidhogg is at full strength.

[Duelle]

actually, about Nidhogg needing to be put down... Even neutral Midgardsormr lamented that his son was lost to his rage. Nidhogg lost his senses centuries ago, and the only hope midgy has of seeing his boy regain his senses is if Estinien fights for control.

This would be an interesting plot turn. Nidhogg being stopped by your efforts and Estinien's attempt to regain control. Would be even better if we somehow managed to save him.

I actually liked Estinien, even if he's a little too set in his ways. Now if Iceheart's ghost/spirit/echo had something to do with saving Estinien, this would draw a nice parallel to the whole Hraesvelgr and Shiva thing.

[Cilia]

More specifically Every large religious orginization in all of Final Fantasy history has always been Lawful Evil (Yevon, The Sanctum , The Church of Glabados, etc) with several note worthy members being Chaotic Evil in their own right. (Seymour Guado, Barthandelus, Marcel Funebris, ect)

So The Ishguardian Orthodox Church and Thordin VII are but another example to the eternal constant in the Final Fantasy Multiverse that Churches are misguided at best to outright evil at worst.

Yeah, I forgot about the Sanctum in XIII... but then again, I never quite finished that one.

Makes me wonder why that is. Perhaps Shinto wasn't organized like the Catholic church is, and it seems weird to Japanese developers so they make all the churches corrupt in JRPGs? /confused

[Allyrion]

Yeah, I forgot about the Sanctum in XIII... but then again, I never quite finished that one.

Makes me wonder why that is. Perhaps Shinto wasn't organized like the Catholic church is, and it seems weird to Japanese developers so they make all the churches corrupt in JRPGs? /confused

I agree with Game Theory for some part.
They did a vid on FF being anti-religion.

For the most part, Buddhism, Shinto and Daoism while very different were able to blend more naturally together within Japan.
Judeo-Christian religions are very different from that and don't fit within that balance.

Their adaptations of those religions are based on a worldly nature.
The Judeo-Christian religions, as most of Japan knows it, is markedly anti-Worldly.
It doesn't fit that balance, or acknowledge the natural world (Shinto gods are based on elements and nature).

FF usually likes to use the Church in combination with light and darkness battle to symbolize the Dao (the yin-yang symbol).
When you go too far into the Light part, you find darkness (Hence the Churches are Lawful Evil).

A good few of the FFs also act like Godly desires are too far and above humans and so different from normal human thought that it's not in our best interest to follow it.
Especially since it usually doesn't value individual human life in most cases.

So FF likes to use the Church to be an extreme that either gets easily corrupted (darkness in light) or does something we can't agree with (still darkness in light).
The image of the Church is just very jarring next to other philosophies that are centered around balance.

Other pantheon religions are also represented.
I think they are given more friendly treatment because some are friendly and some are enemies, and that's more balanced and natural.

[Kaiser-Ace]

For the most part, Buddhism, Shinto and Daoism while very different were able to blend more naturally together within Japan.
Judeo-Christian religions are very different from that and don't fit within that balance.

Their adaptations of those religions are based on a worldly nature.
The Judeo-Christian religions, as most of Japan knows it, is markedly anti-Worldly.
It doesn't fit that balance, or acknowledge the natural world (Shinto gods are based on elements and nature).

FF usually likes to use the Church in combination with light and darkness battle to symbolize the Dao (the yin-yang symbol).
When you go too far into the Light part, you find darkness (Hence the Churches are Lawful Evil).

A good few of the FFs also act like Godly desires are too far and above humans and so different from normal human thought that it's not in our best interest to follow it.
Especially since it usually doesn't value individual human life in most cases.

So FF likes to use the Church to be an extreme that either gets easily corrupted (darkness in light) or does something we can't agree with (still darkness in light).
The image of the Church is just very jarring next to other philosophies that are centered around balance.

Other pantheon religions are also represented.
I think they are given more friendly treatment because some are friendly and some are enemies, and that's more balanced and natural.

Actually that sums up organized religion in general. There are like three different types of Islam, two different kinds of Judaism, and a countless amount of Christian/Pseudo-Christian factions. Small wonder Japanese view them (Especially Christian based systems like Ishguard's) as corrupt and Untrustworthy. Cause most of the time they are. (And this is coming from, and excuse the real world referencing, a "Maverick Christian that calls BS on all of the idiotic Dogmas that divide my faith")

[Tenkuu]

I hated him, for certain. I didn't like him in the Dragoon quests, and really wasn't on board with how big a character he is in HW.

Not going to shed a tear over it. Most of the story has me just shaking my head, actually.

Never liked Estinien. Just because he said a few smart things over the course of his life doesn't stop him from being an overall ass. People who try to justify his behavior as being good at his job honestly make me facepalm, because really? We meet plenty of people who are good at their jobs, have pretty rough jobs and aren't completely arrogant jackasses about it, namely the Scions. Also, given the fact that many people go out of their way to be nice, and if not that then at least patient, with Estinien and the general rude way he responds to everyone, I have absolutely zero sympathy for the guy and felt that he more than deserved his fate. I could not care less what happens to Estinien, even if my character happens to disagree. Speaking of which, Estinien, way to steal my character's thunder when Y'shtola was trying to give us a compliment. Go away please.

I know you meant the DRG story btw, but for me your last words there pretty much summed up my feelings about most of 3.0. It's mostly the fact that while I like a few select Ishgardians, I generally dislike the Ishgardians' behavior of learned helplessness in that they did absolutely nothing on their own but instead waited for the Warrior of Light to show up to even think of beginning to solve their problem with the dragons. No matter what you want to say to justify that, to me that's really just laziness and indifference on an unforgivable level, and makes me think we really will be their go-to guy/girl for solving all of their problems in the future.

Raubahn and Nanamo are just so adorable to me. I can't possibly hold anything against them.

I sure can. Nanamo's Tales from the Dragonsong War never even hinted that she'd be doing anything to help find the remaining Scions, so she better get her ass in gear and start doing something for them and us after all the trouble she got us into.

A tiny bit off topic... but I'm actually more interested in what will happen to Lahabrea, as we know he was absorbed into Ascalon and presumably consumed by Nidhoggs eye, does this mean Lahabrea is either dead or just within nidhogg currently? I'm a little disappointed that he was off'd so easily despite everything so far.

Same. I don't think Lahabrea is gone for good because imo that would be a bit too abrupt of an ending for a guy out of whom a pretty big deal was made. I was actually wondering why the sword was still sticking around after Thordan died, and whether it had any meaning?

[Belhi]

Estinien is kind of a parallel for Nidhogg in ways. Both are full of anger brought about by an injustice of the past. In Estinien's case it was Nidhogg destroying his village and slaughtering his family when h
e was a child. I think that anger is a good part of the source of his jerkiness. Him and Nidhogg both represent the rage that drives the dragonsong war. The only difference is that Estinien seemed to be more open to changing his view and if not forgiving dragons as such, being able to be at peace with them.

Also, Id say the Ishgardians would have killed Nidhogg many years ago if they had the opportunity. The Dravanians and the Ishgardians have been trapped in a cycle that has cost both sides greatly and gone on for so long its almost second nature to them. The desperate and constant war for survival have driven the Ishgardians into a ridged social structure which struggles with change even though it has helped them survive for as long as it has. Our role wasn't simply saving Ishgard but breaking this cycle and making the Ishgardians think that maybe there is another way. Braking this cycle is ironically exactly what Thordan tried to do. We just didn't like his plan.

On saving Estinien, I think its quite possible. Really as the WoL we have barely really used the potential of the Echo. We mainly use it passively but from its description we can literally enter the souls of others. Theoretically we can probably do anything the Ascians can in the sense of possession and such. Going in and pulling Nidhogg and Estinien apart doesn't seem that far fetched.

[Calypsx]

Hope he's gone. I found his character to be terribly boring.

[Theodric]

Hope he's gone. I found his character to be terribly boring.

Which characters do you prefer then? I'm surprised you find him 'boring' considering that he's one of the few characters who simply 'gets stuff done' and has excellent reasons to act the way he does. He came across as harsh initially and then evolved over time together to become friendlier and a 'brother in arms' sort of guy.

[Calypsx]

Which characters do you prefer then? I'm surprised you find him 'boring' considering that he's one of the few characters who simply 'gets stuff done' and has excellent reasons to act the way he does. He came across as harsh initially and then evolved over time together to become friendlier and a 'brother in arms' sort of guy.

There's a lot of characters that have got stuff done. I find him boring in comparison to all the others and his attitude never really improved for me. Out of all the characters in 3.0 he just interested me the least. Atleast his fate was fitting.