Estinien (spoilers)

[Jonnycbad]

Finally, the dragoons are basically dragon killers and have minimal political affiliation with the governing bodies of ishgard so I dont think their endeavres/misendeavres really meant anything to anyone apart from themselves.

Aren't they the highest order of knights in Ishgard? They hang out at the Congregation and that's basically the HQ for Ishgard's knights, and knights are the officers of the Ishagardian military, likely with the Dragoons being sort of the 'special forces', as kind of inferred by the DRG 3.0 storylines. Although in that story you see a that even Drachen Armor-clad DRGs armed with Gae Bolgs get their asses handed to them by some fodder dragons, which is odd, because I assumed Drachen Armor+Gae Bolg were only given to the most elite dragoons, but you see Gae Bolgs and Drachen Armor worn by dozens of Dragoons in the story, and they get rocked by level 50 Avis and Dragonflies....lol

[MilesSaintboroguh]

I always had a feeling he was going to get screwed over by the eye. I was like "no way would they keep warning him and the player how dangerous the eye is without something happening". Lo and behold....

[Theodric]

Estinien never really gave me the impression that he was overly arrogant - he was simply focused on protecting his people and homeland above all else whilst wrestling against the influence of Nidhogg. In many ways he had far more pressure on his shoulders than the Warrior of Light did so it's a testament to his competence that he survived for as long as he did.

[Grayve]

I didn't like him at first, but he grew on me. He was right more often then Iceheart was, as well. There wasn't a peaceful solution to the war while N lived.

[Samcaesar]

I didn't like him at first, but he grew on me. He was right more often then Iceheart was, as well. There wasn't a peaceful solution to the war while N lived.

I'm not sure what you consider "peaceful" but killing a dude who had his innocent beloved killed and wants revenge isn't peaceful to me.

[Theodric]

I'm not sure what you consider "peaceful" but killing a dude who had his innocent beloved killed and wants revenge isn't peaceful to me.

Nidhogg lost his right to revenge when he started slaying innocents and punishing future generations for the sins of their ancestors.

[Samcaesar]

The elezen can't be killed off because of something that happened before them. Fighting Nidhogg is Nidhogg's fault. Sure, dragons don't get over the past but you can't expect them to just roll over and die.

Not all Elezens took part in the killing of Ratatoskr, but a good majority of Ishgardians actively seek out the deaths of heretics and dragons.

Nidhogg lost his right to revenge when he started slaying innocents and punishing future generations for the sins of their ancestors.

And what of those Ishgardians who actively take part in the slaying of dragons and heretics? This is war, you aren't innocent if you actively support the deaths of the enemy without regard for their lives.

[Allyrion]

Nidhogg doesn't care for all Elezen or races of man, he just hates Ishgard, and rightfully so.

If you buy into the whole "sins of the parent" stuff and....being a racist.
Everyone in this story had blood on their hands.

Your argument seemed to start from a misconception.

I didn't like him at first, but he grew on me. He was right more often then Iceheart was, as well. There wasn't a peaceful solution to the war while N lived.

I'm not sure what you consider "peaceful" but killing a dude who had his innocent beloved killed and wants revenge isn't peaceful to me.

No one said Estinien was peaceful or that killing Nidhogg was peaceful.
But there was Nidhogg's rage consumed him. He was twisted and corrupted by his hatred till he was a shade of his former self.

It's reasonable why he became like this. He was horribly wronged.
But he doesn't act out of reason, he acts of emotion - namely unquenchable fury.
I don't know how far you've been through the story but it's clear there was no way to quell the dragon.

As much cold as Estinien is, he was open to ending the war peacefully if possible. He had a lot of hatred himself but he was not consumed by it (at least not by his own).
He could still see reason, but overall there was a parallel between the two that Estinien says himself.

Even Midgarsormr was sad to see what his son became.
It doesn't matter that the reasons behind Nidhogg's anger if his revenge is on those who were born after and had no knowledge of it.

But they're dragons, as they always like to tell us, so their conception of time is different.
They can't comprehend that Ishgard now is made of different people than before or that it's an entirely different era.

Sure, Ishgard carried its sins with it still by covering up the truth.
But Nidhogg did not care for the truth to be unveiled. He wished to make all the descendants suffer endlessly until they were turned or dead.

Killing Nidhogg was a mercy and after he is dead, both sides can try to atone for their sins and make peace.


So yea, no one said that killing Nidhogg was a peaceful solution.
They said "There wasn't a peaceful solution to the war while Nidhogg lived."
Our group wanted a peaceful solution and tried for most of the MSQ to get one that didn't involve killing Nidhogg.
But that didn't work out and, even though Estinien humored the idea, he knew it from the start because he knew the fury within Nidhogg could not be sated.

It wasn't peaceful to kill him, but peaceful solutions were available after he was put down.

As well, what do you say of Ishgard, who persecuted heretics? I don't get how "Nidhogg and his brood being slaughtered" is peaceful, but "Ishgard and those who keep Nidhogg's eyes from him being slaughtered" isn't. Is it allegiance? Because we sympathize with those in Ishgard because of Hauchefant and Aymeric?

Who said that slaughtering is peaceful? I do not see anyone in this thread saying that.

And I don't buy this whole ishgard relating thing. The story clearly tells us both sides and puts Ishgard originally in the wrong.
Then the cycle of revenge was born and no one is innocent when they're part of that.

The people we are given to relate to are those who aren't as stubborn as the Archbishop (who would eradicate all Nidhogg's brood) or Nidhogg (who would eradicate all the Ishgard's descendants). Also, Aymeric isn't a good source for what Nidhogg wants. They make it clear he won't stop until all of Ishgard's descendants are punished.

People like Haurchefant and Aymeric don't want to propagate the war.
Each side is basically only fighting because they're on a side and they have an enemy.
They fight to protect their home and family, including the dragons.

We're not meant to relate to the people who are fine with killing dragons for the sake of it.
The PC only really surrounded by people who just want the war to end.
Iceheart and Estinien are a bit less neutral and voice the dragon and ishgard sides respectively.
But even Estinien, who lost everything to the dragons himself, showed that he understood that ending the war was all that mattered.

There would be no justice in a war like this, with the real criminals long dead but their legacy stained both sides with blood for 1000 years.
With no justice, the only important thing is to break the cycle.

[Balipu]

He grew on me and over time Iceheart and Estinien grew on each other. But quite frankly I am not surprised Estinien didn't survive the main scenario. Everyone and their grandmother mentioned several times that all the rage inside Estinien will doom him. It did. Granted, he might come back when we finally kill Nidhogg for good, but whatever happened to him, he had it comming.

[Kauthryn]

He grew on me and over time Iceheart and Estinien grew on each other. But quite frankly I am not surprised Estinien didn't survive the main scenario. Everyone and their grandmother mentioned several times that all the rage inside Estinien will doom him. It did. Granted, he might come back when we finally kill Nidhogg for good, but whatever happened to him, he had it comming.

Why did he have it coming?