Shadow Wall vs Vengeance!

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Vengeance:
Every time someone attacks you they take 50 potency in damage.
Reduces damage taken by 30%.
Duration: 15s
Reuse: 120s

Shadow Wall
Reduces damage taken by 30%.
Duration: 10s
Reuse: 180s


Something needs changed. Vengeance is 100x better then Shadow Wall. I would change it to something like this.

Shadow Wall
Every time something attacks you, you heal for 50 potency.
Reduces damage taken by 30%
Duration: 15s
Reuse: 120s

[Lorielle]

Shadow Wall
Every time something attacks you, you heal for 50 potency.
Reduces damage taken by 30%
Duration: 15s
Reuse: 120s

It's funny, because with all the things they take from FFXI..I figured they would have at least took a look at Dark Knight's Dread Spikes and worked it in accordingly. Heck, I expected THAT to be the 5 minute CD.

[Timat]

Umm pardon me but why are we comparing skills in a vaccume here?

[Kaedan94]

It's better to look at the big picture rather skill by skill:

DRK Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Shadowskin (20% reduction, 20s)
-Grit (20% reduction, toggle)
-Dark Dance (30% parry, 20s)
-Dark Mind (15-30% magic damage reduction, 10s)
-Shadow Wall (30% reduction, 10s)
-Living Dead (HP won't drop below 1, 10s) This one is arguably better than Holy Ground since there are attacks Holy Ground won't block.

WAR Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Vengeance (30% reduction + spikes, 15s)
-Defiance (2-10% parry based on stacks)
-Inner Beast (20% reduction every Infuriated, if used for it)
-Raw Intuition (100% parry from front, 100% crit received damage from side and back, 20s)

Overall they are very close. Don't just compare skill to skill.

[Lorielle]

It's better to look at the big picture rather skill by skill:

DRK Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Shadowskin (20% reduction, 20s)
-Grit (20% reduction, toggle)
-Dark Dance (30% parry, 20s)
-Dark Mind (15-30% magic damage reduction, 10s)
-Shadow Wall (30% reduction, 10s)
-Living Dead (HP won't drop below 1, 10s) This one is arguably better than Holy Ground since there are attacks Holy Ground won't block.

WAR Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)
-Vengeance (30% reduction + spikes, 15s)
-Defiance (2-10% parry based on stacks)
-Inner Beast (20% reduction every Infuriated, if used for it)
-Raw Intuition (100% parry from front, 100% crit received damage from side and back, 20s)

Overall they are very close. Don't just compare skill to skill.

If Hallowed Ground/Holmgang won't block them, Living Dead isn't an exception. I can tell you Ramuh didn't give two shakes that I used Living Dead without the mitigation buff for Shock Strike. Nit picking aside, it's funny how we can make 40% reduction(Grit and Shadowskin) and yet still feel as soft as a Warrior. And it is important to look at skill by skill. If you look at the big picture all the time, you might miss some of the fine details in that big picture.

[Kaedan94]

If Hallowed Ground/Holmgang won't block them, Living Dead isn't an exception. I can tell you Ramuh didn't give two shakes that I used Living Dead without the mitigation buff for Shock Strike.

That is a very special case attack. The mechanic is designed that if you don't get 3 surge protection, you lose.

What I'm talking about is that there are some high damage attacks that are not blocked by Holy Ground. But Living Dead isn't mitigation, so there's nothing about blocking. You are kept at 1 HP, regardless of the damage you take.

Nit picking aside, it's funny how we can make 40% reduction(Grit and Shadowskin) and yet still feel as soft as a Warrior. And it is important to look at skill by skill. If you look at the big picture all the time, you might miss some of the fine details in that big picture.

I did look at skill by skill. Notice how I listed all of them. What I was saying is you can't COMPARE skill by skill and expect them to be the same because there are mitigating factors based on the OTHER skills available in a job's set.

[Rbstr]

It's better to look at the big picture rather skill by skill:

DRK Defensive skills (not counting HP skills):
-Foresight (20% reduction, 20s)

No, 20% more defense. Much, much less than 20% reduction. Besides other issues. You don't have holmgang on there. And if you count Grit you need to count Defiance's hp and healing buffs. Those amount to very nearly the exact same thing as Grit (or Sword Oath for that matter)

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

[Ditto]

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

This.

People who are looking at the 'big picture' as they call it, are blind to how Dark Knights really work. We're Paladins without a shield, and with a hell of a lot less mitigation. Those individual pieces MAKE UP the big picture people seem to be so focused on.

When you go into an encounter, you don't pop everything you have right off the bat, you use individual skills when you need to. And in that case, when something isn't adding up right, it's incredibly apparent.

[Kaedan94]

No, 20% more defense. Much, much less than 20% reduction. Besides other issues. You don't have holmgang on there. And if you count Grit you need to count Defiance's hp and healing buffs. Those amount to very nearly the exact same thing as Grit (or Sword Oath for that matter)

IMO Shadow Wall needs to take vengeance's timer or gain a pretty big secondary effect to justify the timer.

Yup, I did mistype Foresight, but since both jobs have access to it, the typo isn't really relevant. And yes, I did forget Holmgang, apologies. Though since Living Dead and Holmgang are similar, again it's not really a big deal.

I can count Grit because it gives damage reduction. The only mitigation-related part of Defiance is Parry. If you want me to include all the HP stuff as well, then I'd have to do so far DRK too, and again it comes out as very comparable.

And I do agree Shadow Wall needs some tweaking, but only because it's a direct copy of Sentinel minus the 10% bonus Paladin has from their trait (making Sentinel 40%). Personally I like the idea of adding a small "Darkness" absorption shield or something.

But that wasn't the point. The point is you can't just take two skills out of context, put them in a vacuum and make judgments. You have to consider the whole package.

[Lorielle]

That is a very special case attack. The mechanic is designed that if you don't get 3 surge protection, you lose.

What I'm talking about is that there are some high damage attacks that are not blocked by Holy Ground. But Living Dead isn't mitigation, so there's nothing about blocking. You are kept at 1 HP, regardless of the damage you take..

Hrm? I would need to know such attacks. While Tanking is not my main, in the times that I have tanked, there hasn't been anything HG(off the top of my head at least) that I was unable to nullify if pressed early to make up for server delay.

I did look at skill by skill. Notice how I listed all of them. What I was saying is you can't COMPARE skill by skill and expect them to be the same because there are mitigating factors based on the OTHER skills available in a job's set.

Here's the thing, it's obvious they picked Vengeance because it's essentially your version of Shadow Wall(Sentinel). However, tell us why Shadow Wall's CD is Longer, Duration is Shorter and does less than Warrior's? As someone else mentioned, we're not stacking Defensive CDs. You can argue Defiance vs. Grit if you want, but do remember you too have access to that 20% Reduction at any time(Then you also have a 10% Parry(20% Damage reduction, ayyyy) and Healing Restored Buff upon you to boot). And who the heck is going to toggle Grit? Once Grit, always Grit. The MP Cost just to enter it is silly.