Machinist needs serious attention

[xnonamex]

I am surprised how you can bash on the class so early. We haven't even seen the end-game raid content. Ranged DPS have significant advantages over melee in real-fight thus i am not even mildly surprised that on pure dummy test the machinist is rather low.
I assume that MCH does piercing damage? Anyone taken disembowel into account in case you have DRG in pty?

[LittleArrow]

Well, Gauss Barrel is not longer instant while under Rapid Fire...

That's just peachy...

Lol, love how they put those changes in without even addressing the other concerns to this class.

I am surprised how you can bash on the class so early. We haven't even seen the end-game raid content. Ranged DPS have significant advantages over melee in real-fight thus i am not even mildly surprised that on pure dummy test the machinist is rather low.
I assume that MCH does piercing damage? Anyone taken disembowel into account in case you have DRG in pty?

You're just repeating the same arguments that are constantly parroted throughout this thread without even reading the responses... heck without even reading the front page. I understand as DRG you may feel like this is acceptable, but it's not. In all of my groups, melee is compensated. With this latest coil and even second coil, ranged no longer has an advantage considering 1. all of my parties will adjust the fight for melee and put all of the grunt work on ranged, and 2. most of all the mechanics is on ranged, and if it's not they're both on ranged and melee.

We don't need to give the class more time. The very basic potency numbers doubled with RNG - in other words just how the class plays basically is showing in weakness compared to every other class. Not to mention if the whole ranged vs melee argument had any weight then SMNs of all classes would be doing low dps, they're not, they're being recorded with parses 100 - 200 dps better. That's an insane margin and totally unacceptable.

Also, please don't come back with the 'support' argument. All of these arguments are addressed on the original post. If you disagree with them, please read them and disagree with the points already brought up.

[xnonamex]

...

1) I did read the front page
2) I repeat - we still haven't seen the new raid content. You are saying coil was like that. Well we do not know if the new raids will be coil like. At least the fights that i have seen now are rather annoying on melee with a lot of movement and dps downtime. When we get to alexander and we see that it does not work then i agree. there is a problem. (because honestly. dps numbers matter only in raids in this game )
3) you still didn't answer my Disembowel question. And maybe it has been answered but honestly i don't want to skim through 20 pages.

I do think that it is stupid that ppl are starting to exclude bards and mch from PF acceptable player list. but then again. they ask for ilvl170 for Bismarck. so that says everything

[shinros]

Honestly if Japanese is outright abandoning the class something needs to be done honestly people I know have also given up on the MCH because of its dps and that it pretty much relies on rng. Honestly I barely see level 60 MCH's.

[Negotiator]

A class shouldn't rely on another class to make them passable. Everyone should be managing their own resources always assuming you're not going to get buffed by another player. The job is broken...peroid. Do you think everyone is dumb and playing the job wrong? Don't you think people have been trying different rotations to maximize it's potential (especially raiders)? If it's bad now, how is it going to be better in raids?

[LittleArrow]

1) I did read the front page
2) I repeat - we still haven't seen the new raid content. You are saying coil was like that. Well we do not know if the new raids will be coil like. At least the fights that i have seen now are rather annoying on melee with a lot of movement and dps downtime. When we get to alexander and we see that it does not work then i agree. there is a problem. (because honestly. dps numbers matter only in raids in this game )
3) you still didn't answer my Disembowel question. And maybe it has been answered but honestly i don't want to skim through 20 pages.

I do think that it is stupid that ppl are starting to exclude bards and mch from PF acceptable player list. but then again. they ask for ilvl170 for Bismarck. so that says everything

I apologize then, because I don't understand your post. I've already addressed the issues with 'movement' as have others in this thread.Melee don't move.. and if they do it does not effect their dps. I have NEVER out dps'd a melee on my ranged due to advantage with movement except maybe in.. t9? Even then, it was only in one phase, one short phase. Also, no I haven't tested disembowled b/c I had that move on my brd all during this last phase of coil and it did very little to change what I was outputting. If someone comes here and says, hey disembowl fixes all of our problems, I'll gladly bow down with an apology. However, from my experience, I don't need to test it, it's not going to do much and if it does, then that's even doubly disappointing that a DPS class is solely reliant on 1 move to put them where they should be normally.

If you feel that way regarding movement as an advantage, then there's no amount of logic, experience, or even evidence I show you to that will change your mind. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Btw... so furious over these fixes. Because yeah, makes so much sense to fix a class that everyone is either abandoning, excluding, or coming here to express their frustrations over. Was the Rapid fire buff bug hurting literally anyone? No. It wasn't. Even with the bug the class reported lower numbers. It only made this class a little more bearable to play. Such great business decisions. If anyone has fun in this game it seems it's nerfed instantly. Thanks for that.

Also, a sidenote, I will never use Guass Barrel - it was a net dps loss when it was used as reported by reddit, now with a 3sec cast in the middle of the rotation.. it is absolutely an utterly useless to me. The 200 potency freebie along with the richochet did not make this move viable, so with a 3sec cast, it definitely is not viable.

[xnonamex]

Melee don't move.. and if they do it does not effect their dps.

Well this... just says everything i guess

Then there's no amount of logic, experience, or even evidence I show you to that will change your mind.

yes. right back at you

And regarding Dis. As i understand the composition of damage from which bards get dis bonus and mach gets bonus differs. as i understand mach has less dots? and as i understand bards dots don't get bonus from piercing damage reduction (at least i read that). But meh. was just putting it out there as a consideration. Don't need to get overworked over it

Anyway. All i wanted to say is that imo ppl are just too fast to bash on everything they don't like in this game when we don't even have all the content available. Never rly said that you might be wrong (you can re-read my posts if you are not sure).

[Ramath]

Well this... just says everything i guess

yes. right back at you

And regarding Dis. As i understand the composition of damage from which bards get dis bonus and mach gets bonus differs. as i understand mach has less dots? and as i understand bards dots don't get bonus from piercing damage reduction (at least i read that). But meh. was just putting it out there as a consideration. Don't need to get overworked over it

Anyway. All i wanted to say is that imo ppl are just too fast to bash on everything they don't like in this game when we don't even have all the content available. Never rly said that you might be wrong (you can re-read my posts if you are not sure).

The ability to claim uncertainty only stands on the basis of having POSITIVE evidence alongside negative evidence. Hence, the uncertainty. When all we have it negative evidence, what other conclusion can people jump to?

If you are so certain there's a possibility of MCN doing just fine in any sort of high-end raid, I would love to see your evidence.

Second, the DRG piercing debuff will help, yes, but not nearly to the degree that you are suggesting. You see, we have a similar buff to help the DRGs in return, but you don't see their DPS jumping up to extreme amounts. Are you saying Disembowel really has to potential to add ~100-200 DPS needed to put us on par with other jobs? If so, wouldn't that same logic justify a debilitating nerf to DRG? After all, BRD got nerfed for helping other jobs perform better.

PS: Adding smilies doesn't hide your rudeness.

[LittleArrow]

Well this... just says everything i guess

The context of that quote is that if dps does move, the dps loss is never significant to warrant the dps disparity between melee and ranged. I apologize if I seem overworked, but you're one of a dozen people that come here, don't play the class, throw out criticism to the arguments being made without experience with the class. Not to mention, we just got nerfed with a fix that was totally unnecessary, so I apologize, but I'm full sith mode atm with utter frustration.

Thank you for your suggestions in either case. Any interest in this issue should be appreciated whether or not I may be welcoming, in which case again, I apologize.

[Alise]

Do you have a number chart that tell each job 's max dps?
I wanna see the number since you even claim that tank do more dps than bard/mch ?