Machinist needs serious attention

[LittleArrow]

Hello!

I was waiting to post my opinions about Machinist until I got to 60; however, it seems there are numerous MCH at 60 still affirming the issues I'm having with MCH at 54. I have not seen many posts here on the forums about it for some reason, but I wanted to bring this to official forums because reddit is pretty packed with very similar posts regarding issues with MCH.

I'll very briefly break it down here, but I strongly suggest if you have any interest in this, or would like to bring forth an argument, please read these posts. They provide a much more indepth argument than I do. Also, if you're just going to post, you don't know how to play, it needs more time in endgame, etc - either play MCH with a decent DPS friend and see how bad it is, or have a MCH friend and play with them to see how bad it is.

We're not making this up, these are real problems.

Lastly, if you're a MCH and you post, "I'm not having any of those issues...," please post your rotation and tell us what you're doing. I've tried SEVERAL rotations and still find the same problems.

Here are some of the major issues plaguing MCH at the moment (some of these are my personal observations others are from reddit posters):

• Overal Damage is too low
• Too much work for little reward
• Some skills are completely useless to have
• Ammunition cooldowns are bad
• Too much RNG
• Only once source to proc basic combo skills at 50% proc rate (seems high, but I hardly ever have procs while quickload / reload are on cooldown, compared to the 3 sources to proc bloodletter - 2dots and weaponskill)
• Wildfire is not optimized in game (supposedly double defense reduction, the only skill that gets it)
• Must play class perfectly just to achieve moderate output compared to other DPS
• No self heal (Second Wind / Cure, Thanks KylePearlsand for pointing this out. Second Wind has saved my life countless times on BRD in raids and I've definitely been missing it on MCH)

Here are some indepth links I strongly suggest taking a look over. It's extremely surprising to see how poorly balanced this class is compared to every other dps out there.

• http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._on_machinist/
• http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ist_real_talk/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...damage_vs_brd/
• https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._doesnt_exist/

[EDIT]Here's a more updated post from reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/relate...t_dps_testing/

Also for those saying it's not that bad, even some of the JP community is in an uproar about MCHs and are abandoning the class all together, here's a read from reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ut_the_mchbrd/

[EDIT] Also, here are 2 more threads on the official forums discussing the issues with MCH:

• http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...s-Changes-HERE
• http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...to-level-42%29

[End EDIT]

Whether or not these points have been properly proven in game or not, there is quite a large group of Machinist players that feel this class needs to be looked at. That alone, imo, requires some attention from SE. Hopefully we'll get it sooner than Warrior's / Dragoon / Summoner buff when players were saying very similar comments.

Just one more thing, I understand this class hasn't been out but for a few days. I fully agree that there is much more testing to be done; however, those that are playing this class that I've read are putting 100% attention and effort into playing it at its peak. I, for one, am constantly working to play this to its max potential. That may not mean much to some, but I'm certainly not playing this class like i would any other DPS.

Thanks for the read

[EDIT] The previous reported numbers have been adjust to reflect MCH is on par with BRD. However, both BRD and MCH DPS are also recording lower than tanks atm. Here's a more updated recording of MCH numbers as reported from reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...t_dps_testing/

Here are my suggestions for fixing this class:

1. Lower the GCD / Casting time to so we can spam Split Shot more
2. Increase the proc chance between Split and Slug to 75% or 80%, leave the proc chance between Slug and Cleaner alone
3. Lower the Cooldowns on Reload / Quick Reload
4. Make Wildfire cut through all defenses (it's getting hit with 2 defense reductions, the only move that does that in the entire game)
5. Add a self heal somewhere (like second wind - passive that lowers CD on potions and increases its effect)
6. Combine footgraze with knockback, otherwise the skill is pointless (leg graze (30s slow) shares CD with foot graze (2sec bind) and it just adds an extra button that is not needed, making the class more convoluted than necessary)
7. Increase all of the overall potencies of weaponskills
8. Increase all of the overal potencies of Turret to do more damage

Personally I think 1 - 6 should be done straight off the bat to make MCH comparable to other dps. Either do 7 or 8 but not both.

[EDIT]
I apologize for making this original post longer, but here is a fundamental argument brought up by another poster, Ramath, that I feel is so incredibly important to take into consideration when talking about ranged dps and balancing damage / nerfing damage:

"I'm still at a loss as to why BRD and MCN are being accepted as lowest dps in a party composition. BRD and MCn still take up a DPS slot. Shouldn't they be expected to pull their share of the DPS responsibility?

"BRD and MCN can buff the other DPS in the party."
-Well, sure, but doesn't DRG and WAR do the same thing? BRD gets a penalty for buffing others by lowering their own. MCN can only do it for 15 sec out of 90. DRG keeps theirs up 100% (ideally.) MNK can boost healing effectiveness for the party. NIN can boost damage for the party for a time, as well with Trick Attack:

"BRD and MCN can always attack and don't have to stop moving."
-Neither does my DRG... Yes, I know I'm limited to melee range, but having cleared T1-13 on my DRG, having to stay out of range during times when the boss was still targetable and attackable was EXTREMELY rare. With two different gap-closeres, my DRG never stopped hitting. Besides, my SMN is able to keep up an extremely high percentage of its damage while on the move, as well. Not to mention the fact that, guess what, BRD and MCN have to stop moving now, too, for WM and GB.

"MCN has so many other abilities to affect the fight."
-In theory, but not in practical application. Almost every boss in the game is immune to stun, silence, knockback, heavy, and bind. That's five of our abilities we can't use in a boss fight, and almost all of our utility. Sure, we get a defensive cooldown that nerfs the boss, but so does SMN...

"BRD and MCH can give tp/mp to other classes."
-So can NIN. On top of that, I was always expected to manage my own TP as DRG and MP as SMN. Yes, our BRD was there to sing for our healers, but since when does that increase our DPS? The times when our BRD played a TP song to help regen the TP of a DPS who died, it never increased my ability to deal damage as my DRG. Having to stop dealing damage to help a party member, sure, that sounds 100% logical. But when I'm not helping my healers, why am I still sitting at the bottom of the list, undisputed?


Yes, BRD and MCN are different from the other DPS, as they should be. I don't expect every job to play the same. I DO expect, however, that every role be able to perform on the same level. All healers should be able to keep their party alive. All tanks should be able to survive getting their face smashed in. All DPS should be able to keep up their share of the required DPS checks.

The days of MMO's being filled with large, open-world bosses with the ranged DPS standing up on a rock to height-mitigate damage, are gone. No longer do the melee have to constantly 'joust' to avoid constant spam of 360-degree AoEs. Why are we still treating ranged DPS like this? Having played both ranged, caster, and melee dps in T1-13, the argument that the backline has to move less is complete garbage. I had to move MORE as a BLM and SMN than I ever did as a DRG." -Ramath

[LittleArrow]

A point about the damage for those wondering; I've had friends complain about MCH dps in parties stating they feel like they're solo dpsing. I've also read that one MCH weaponskill was doing the same amount of damage as a Paladin's autoattack. Personally, I mained BRD since 1.0. Comparing my numbers from BRD to my MCH was pretty sobering. Despite how well I felt I was doing on MCH (b/c again, it takes a lot of effort to play this class efficiently) when I saw the scrolling damage numbers in game to my BRD (3 levels lower) it absolutely floored me. My BRD was putting out higher numbers than my MCH easily with the numerous bloodletters.

Generally, feedback on MCH damage is poor. Whether or not we're using "Reload" correctly, I can't honestly say. I've tried numerous ways to use reload and have found a decent rotation, but when I ask my NIN friend what their weaponskills are hitting for, my MCH still doesn't come close.

I suppose we'll have to see how MCH DPS progresses. Maybe we're all doing it wrong.

[EdwinLi]

Does your friend remember to always use their Turrets?

The turrets attacks are part of MCH source of Damage and without it they are only performing at 90% a Bard can do but with it the MCH can perform equal damage to a Bard in their auto-attack mode.

Also, did the rotation use ammo properly? Ammo should only be used when performing the 123 combo for burst damage.

A starting combo used for engaging a enemy can be, from what I do all the time, Hot shot -> Lead Shot -> Reload -> Split Shot -> Slug Shot -> Reassemble -> Clean Shot -> Rapid Fire -> Split Shot -> Slug Shot -> Clean Shot.

Quick Reload can be saved for starting a new combo or finishing a Combo. Try not to waste Ammo on skills that are not part of the 123 combo.

On another topic:

My only complaint is that Ammo is on a 30 sec timer to be used. It force players to use there ammo which can make players feel they have to save it when the MCH is designed to treat ammo as a resource that is always used.

[Tonkra]

Does your friend remember to always use their Turrets?

the damage of the turret is also quiet lame... compared to summoner pets..

If i let a turret shoot alone on a monster of the same level as me it does around 48 damage each shot (lv 40).. it almost dies on an ice element of lv 36 (and ice elements do lame damage).. Garuda pet for example can -easily- solo a mob of the same level.


Additional the ruinra instant spam skill of smn seems to make more damage as me as a machinist, who is using special ammonition and dmg boost skills from brd..

the damage of machinist is quiet ridiculous. why should an anytime spam skill like ruinra make more damage as if i was using a skill combo and special skills? makes no sense at all.. since smn is a damage dealer like machinist is..

machinist has no supporting skills like bard.. except tp and mp generation.



if you compare smn to mch ... smn having: instant dd anytime spell that does more damage + instant DoT + 2 cast DoT's + a pet that makes MUCH more damage...

and a machinist: weapon skill chains that do lower damage than ruinra, lame turret damage

[Quixotica]

the damage of the turret is also quiet lame... compared to summoner pets..

If i let a turret shoot alone on a monster of the same level as me it does around 48 damage each shot (lv 40).. it almost dies on an ice element of lv 36.. Garuda pet for example can -easily- solo a mob of the same level.


*snip*

A DD Job in which the player does horrid damage and has little utility, while also possessing a minion that does terrible damage and dies at the drop of a hat?


As a retired level 75 Dragoon, I'll just be over here in the corner chuckling. Oh Squeenix, will you ever learn..

[Tonkra]

A DD Job in which the player does horrid damage and has little utility, while also possessing a minion that does terrible damage and dies at the drop of a hat?


As a retired level 75 Dragoon, I'll just be over here in the corner chuckling. Oh Squeenix, will you ever learn..

haha yea.. they completely overdone that.. (we need to nerf mch damage and the pet damage or its going to be overpowered = gimped class)


And having in mind in comparison to for example summoner job...
i mean its a TURRET pet.. it cant move... summoner pets can move.. wouldnt be it some kind of trade off if the turret pet makes more damage or at least the same as a garuda pet as it cant move and has just only one attack skill???!!

[EdwinLi]

haha yea.. they completely overdone that.. (we need to nerf mch damage and the pet damage or its going to be overpowered = gimped class)


And having in mind in comparison to for example summoner job...
i mean its a TURRET pet.. it cant move... summoner pets can move.. wouldnt be it some kind of trade off if the turret pet makes more damage or at least the same as a garuda pet as it cant move and has just only one attack skill???!!

I think it is because Turrets are not meant to be treated as Pets for MCH. At best Turrets are more the DoT conditions of Bard and the Bard's Song abilities when in support mode.

I can hardly call Turrets pets since the only fuction they have is to provide more DoT or TP and MP regen support.

[Sylve]

snip

Not exaggerating even a little here, but i've taken to using my Turrets to tank mobs for me if i proxy adds at 55 while soloing.
Turrets have the same HP as me, and even with 2 Dragons bashing its face in, my Bishop Turret survives the beating with 40~% HP left after i drag off and kill my initial target plus the 2 extras.

[LittleArrow]

Yeah. I always use turrets, and from the posts I've seen, these Machinists know what they're doing, but I can't 100% speak for them.

Yes, I am using Reload with my combos, and I feel comfortable with handling my buff / dot rotation. ^^

I've tried Reload both ways, and the damage is still extremely subpar to medicore DPS from other classes.

[NovaWulfe]

While I had almost no idea how the machinist played before reading this thread, I just wanted to say that THIS is how a complaint thread should be done. Your arguments seem very reasonable and well-thought out, and hopefully this will either inspire change or at least a good discussion on the class.