Bard is utterly destroyed

[Seifa]

I'm engaged on a discussion with another bard on reddit right now and the difference between perma WM and only Opener Barrage WM on a 2:40 min dummy fight i parsed was by 2 dps, with WM coming on top.

In a real scenario, we won't be able to stand still for that long and need to move out of the way a lot more often by making the Barrage EA then autos the more reliable rotation, in my opinion.

Still, WM isn't what developers advertised to us: the standard stance to use to maximize dps to drop only when there is high movement to do.... or maybe it is, since most of the fights required me to move out of the way every 10-20 seconds <.<

[JovianTheCool]

Rui, mind sharing your numbers? I think I need a benchmark to work towards to. For MCH, it's still a DPS increase to stay in Gauss Barrel than out of it. I'm sure it's the same for bard as well.

[peekashu]

Bard isn't by any chance a bad class now. It's just disappointing to get to lvl 60 and find yourself getting skills that aren't fun neither good to use. I've done Bismarck EX and progressing through Ravana EX and I find myself playing the same I used to play before. Tried those fights using WM all the time and/or only for a few timed burst damage and I found myself doing less DPS.

To summary this expansion for players who plays Bard seeking endgame content: boring, but still relevant.

[Ooshima]

I'm engaged on a discussion with another bard on reddit right now and the difference between perma WM and only Opener Barrage WM on a 2:40 min dummy fight i parsed was by 2 dps, with WM coming on top.

In a real scenario, we won't be able to stand still for that long and need to move out of the way a lot more often by making the Barrage EA then autos the more reliable rotation, in my opinion.

Which is what BRDs are starting to conclude at. The difference between perma WM and normal rotation comes so close you can say that they are identical.

The only difference there that I have noticed that I intentionally do not use Invigorate until I get to the point that 1 more GCD and I will get starved - Perma WM mode utilizing Iron Jaws when you should (IJ isn't always to get go to refresh DoTs) lasts me approximately 20s longer.

All in all I don't see the benefits of perm WM. So I guess WM is really on a burst-required basis. Or at times like all the stars in the sky lines up (ie all CDs synced, especially with pots) then that mother of god 2.7K-3K per hit EA + 5.5K SW crit is well worth it.

Rui, mind sharing your numbers? I think I need a benchmark to work towards to. For MCH, it's still a DPS increase to stay in Gauss Barrel than out of it. I'm sure it's the same for bard as well.

IDK about machinist but honestly as a BRD, if your perma WM mode is higher than your normal BRD mode then I am pretty sure back in FCoB you must have been dealing sub-par DPS as a BRD (not saying you, but in general).

I haven't ran enough runs since I've only bothered to re-DL ACT last night at around 4am and was rather sleepy. 3 runs of WM and without WM, no food/party/buff, numbers range from 780-800 for 3 mins exact. Probably will do more parses once I get my full set gear and Ravana EX weapon.

[Sessurea]

Sort of getting nervous to see how se might "fix" any of this.

Empyreal arrow not connected to wm would be a fine start....maybe IJ too.

[FateAudax]

I think some people are missing the point. One of the main reason that a certain number of players chose to main bard is for their mobility.
Most players who have been playing bard till now should have accepted that their DPS will never be on par with the likes of BLM, SMN, MNK, DRG and NIN. No matter what you argue, Bard's weapon damage is always significantly lower even compared to BLM.


So if your argument is the change which adds cast time is to allow bard to catch up with the caster class, then my obvious question would be "shouldn't Bard's weapon damage the first thing SE should have looked at?".

By adding the totally pointless Wanderer's Minuet, not only did SE totally changed the way the class is played (made into bow wizards) but also hit the class hard with a nerf (lowest weapon damage amongst the available classes) by changing the way Barrage works (if some of us chose to not play WM style).

I may not know how it all began when SE designed the Bard class but I can probably safely say they look and said "so we have our generic melee (tank & dps) and caster (healer & dps).. now we just need the generic ranged dps for variety". As with all MMO, there will always be the melee class, the caster class and the physical ranged class. Not to sound entitled but some of us Bard players have invested 2 years in both time and money into our class, it isn't fair that SE overhauled our class like this. If some of us Bard players wanted a class which requires to be rooted to cast a skill, we would've chose the superior dps BLM or SMN (in HW's case).

I would like to highlight again that some of us chose to play Bard due to the mobility which we find that it is fun to move while attacking from far. We love that even though our dps may be the lowest amongst the dps classes. So don't take that away from us.

[JovianTheCool]

Thanks Rui, I don't have a 60 BRD yet, so I can't judge. I'm pretty sad by MCH's numbers at this point though.

780-800 for 3 mins without Minuet? Yea, let me get some practice in and test. From my initial testing last night, i'm about 60-80 dps lower than the numbers with GB.

For MCH, if you're not in GB, you'll be losing 200 potency every 20 seconds and 400 potency every min which adds up to 1000 potency every minute and they're off-GCD. Need to do more testing to see if Auto-attacks can make up for that. Furthermore unlike BRD, MCH can actually move if there are procs in GB just like BLM.

[Ooshima]

Thanks Rui, I don't have a 60 BRD yet, so I can't judge. I'm pretty sad by MCH's numbers at this point though.

780-800 for 3 mins without Minuet? Yea, let me get some practice in and test. From my initial testing last night, i'm about 60-80 dps lower than the numbers with GB.

For MCH, if you're not in GB, you'll be losing 200 potency every 20 seconds and 400 potency every min which adds up to 1000 potency every minute and they're off-GCD. Need to do more testing to see if Auto-attacks can make up for that. Furthermore unlike BRD, MCH can actually move if there are procs in GB just like BLM.

What numbers does MCH pulls without party/food/buffs etc?

I'm contemplating on leveling MCH but IDK, I have been reading that MCH is a worse shithole than BRD now lol.

[JovianTheCool]

Pretty much rigged with bugs and shitty potencies right now.

I did around 700-720 with some screw ups without party/food/buffs. I'll try again tonight when I get back. Opener wise, I based it off level 50 bard style, so the cooldowns line up perfectly. There's a point 180 seconds in where Hawk Eye+B4B+Wildfire+Rapid fire are available at the same time, but reload is about 10 seconds off. Need to tweak this to see how it goes.

Unlike BRD, if i decide to take off GB stance, MCH do not have many reliable damage dealing off-GCD skills except Blank and Silence/Stun. I'm basically just 123, wait for blank, silence/stun, reload/quick reload and my cooldowns. Normal stance BRD vs MCH, BRD wins hands down. IMO, BRD can play like level 50 and be really efficient, MCH only shines at level 60 with GB (2 powerful off-GCDs added to arsenal but gated behind this stance). In return, MCH gets to move in GB depending on procs, but BRD can't. I guess that's how they decided to "balance" it out.

Edit: 810-820 dps with no party buffs/food

[Ooshima]

Pretty much rigged with bugs and shitty potencies right now.

I did around 700-720 with some screw ups without party/food/buffs. I'll try again tonight when I get back. Opener wise, I based it off level 50 bard style, so the cooldowns line up perfectly. There's a point 180 seconds in where Hawk Eye+B4B+Wildfire+Rapid fire are available at the same time, but reload is about 10 seconds off. Need to tweak this to see how it goes.

Unlike BRD, if i decide to take off GB stance, MCH do not have many reliable damage dealing off-GCD skills except Blank and Silence/Stun. I'm basically just 123, wait for blank, silence/stun, reload/quick reload and my cooldowns. Normal stance BRD vs MCH, BRD wins hands down. IMO, BRD can play like level 50 and be really efficient, MCH only shines at level 60 with GB (2 powerful off-GCDs added to arsenal but gated behind this stance). In return, MCH gets to move in GB depending on procs, but BRD can't. I guess that's how they decided to "balance" it out.

Yes. BRD have more OGCDs to play with (technically only repelling/blunt/BL but BL procs lots) and they are very efficient in weaving that (you can do 2 OGCD per GCD cycle). That is why it comes annoying, and ultimately a source of DPS loss over time when in extended WM mode. On dummy parse I find a lot of time my OGCDs are up and wasted time not firing them off quickly because I can only afford to use one OGCD per cycle, just like casters.