Defensive ability, WAR VS DRK

[SpookyGhost]

Save a healer, save a dps, save the tank or save yourself.

Save the cheerleader, save the world.

[Faytte]

Snip

Why does a dark run out of tp when a war doesnt? Equilibrium only restores tp in deliverance which you wont be in while MTing in raids.
Maim places a war in defiance at the same effective damage as a Dark (WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.
So whats the argument then, cause berserk is pairing off against the massive (over 2000 or so) free potency of off GCD attacks a Dark has per minute.

None of the Darks Burst costs them TP--so im curious why you think this?

[Hundred]

The actual reason war runs out of tp less is because Inner beast costs no TP, so you spend a GCD gaining TP when you use it.
Granted other things in the war kit are tp expensive if used (fracture/Overpower).

[Faytte]

Erm so....that logic...

Darks aoe uses mana, and IB is nice (doesnt cost tp) but I doubt a Dark is running out of TP while tanking because it lacks IB. As you mentioned, things like warriors overpower counter the tp gains of IB.

[Hundred]

That is correct that Drk Aoe uses mana. I deliberately pointed out that a War will run out of mana if they're pushing for their tp inefficient skills.
In the case of simplying using your Sword combos, Drk would have to use a mana GcD skill to replicate what is a natural effect for warrior, using a tp less gcd spell.

Another way to look at it would be that Drk has less initial tp cost due to building aggro via mana, but more sustained tp useage otherwise.

Could be a wash either way, but War regardless regain TP on every IB.

[Giantbane]

Erm so....that logic...

Darks aoe uses mana, and IB is nice (doesnt cost tp) but I doubt a Dark is running out of TP while tanking because it lacks IB. As you mentioned, things like warriors overpower counter the tp gains of IB.

IB is like getting back ~63ish TP every 9-10 GCD as part of your normal rotation. You can also choose to drop fracture from your rotation if you want to conserve TP for long fights. DRK's only option is to mix in unmend & unleash, which eats at their also precious mana. It gets a little worse when you're out of Grit because blood weapon's haste means faster TP drain with nothing to make up for it.

I've noticed DRKs have TP issues on any fight of moderate length with constant up time. Although, maybe it's not a problem because they *do* have options for skills that don't cost TP.

[Ditto]

Why does a dark run out of tp when a war doesnt? Equilibrium only restores tp in deliverance which you wont be in while MTing in raids.
Maim places a war in defiance at the same effective damage as a Dark (WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.
So whats the argument then, cause berserk is pairing off against the massive (over 2000 or so) free potency of off GCD attacks a Dark has per minute.

None of the Darks Burst costs them TP--so im curious why you think this?

I said in an OT situation, or basically with Grit down, not with it up. With Grit down, you have access to Blood Weapon, which gives you crazy attack speed. You blow your TP through very, very easily. I've only ever ran out of TP a couple of times while tanking with Grit up. It doesn't happen often, but it can definitely still happen. Also, yes, all of our burst comes from TP excluding C&S, which you can only use once every 60 seconds anyway. Within that 60 seconds, you'll be spamming either Delirium, or Souleater if you have the mana for Dark Arts. Power Slash only if you need enmity.

Outside of Grit, with Blood Weapon, it's Dark Arts Souleater over and over and over. Your TP goes very fast.

I've noticed DRKs have TP issues on any fight of moderate length with constant up time. Although, maybe it's not an option because they *do* have options for skills that don't cost TP.

Running out of TP is not an option for us outside of Grit (Assuming I'm understanding what you wrote right), or in a fight with Grit on and 0 downtime between skills. It will happen at some point in prolonged fights, but usually most fights have enough transitions or tiny breaks where you can recover your TP. We have *no* skills that cost mana, and are on our GCD chain that we could use in a similar fashion to the way IB uses a gcd, unless we use Unmend, Unleash, or AByssal Drain, all of which are not worth spending the MP on for a single target. In Unmends case, not worth using once you initialize threat.

In Deliverence, a War should almost never run out of TP anymore.

Also, single target enmity is built using TP, and MP through Dark Arts only if it's needed. MP Enmity is only for AOE.

[Giantbane]

Running out of TP is not an option...

Sorry, derped, i meant to type "problem". No idea why I wrote that.

Maybe it's not a problem because there are alternatives. They're obviously not as good as TP moves, but we are still doing something. As opposed to a WAR who can't do anything but flash a couple times if he's out of TP.

[Xenosan]

(WAr is (1*.75)*1.25=90% of normal. Dark is (1*.80)*1.15=92% of normal.

Not disagreeing with your overall point,

but more accurately WAR is (<Potency>*0.75)*1.20. Yes? Maim is 20%, not 25%. WAR is below DRK on true value per point of potency.

Butcher's Block VS Delirium true potency while in stance (both are 280 potency): BB = 252 VS Del = 257

However, Berserk increases Attack Power, and Unchained removes the -25%. Significant.

And Inner Beast & Steel Cyclone always ignore the 25% reduction.

It's close, which comes out on top depends on player, specifically the DRK, who is dropping DPS if they fail to utilize CDs and Dark Arts optimally

edit: regarding TP, DRK will run out before PLD or WAR. Unmend into Proc'd Unleash a couple/few GCDs to replenish (conserving MP). It's meh. Shield Swipe is 210 potency, WAR can stance dance.

<Goad> plz.

[Ditto]

Sorry, derped, i meant to type "problem". No idea why I wrote that.

Maybe it's not a problem because there are alternatives. They're obviously not as good as TP moves, but we are still doing something. As opposed to a WAR who can't do anything but flash a couple times if he's out of TP.

Well, if we're out of TP, we're not regenerating any MP either outside of Blood Price, which is only good on MP regen when you're being attacked by multiple targets. The best thing to do is lay off and only use costless skills for a little. Refresh scourge, then just sit back until some TP comes back. There is too much a need for your MP to blow it all on low damage, crappy single target skills, which you will. Better to sit on your MP and save it for if something goes wrong while waiting for the other one to replenish itself.

And a War could just stance into Deliverance, pop Equilibrium, then go back into Defiance I'm pretty sure. Thats 200 TP every 60 seconds if they don't need the cure.