The Definitive Dark Knight Guide

[Sweetgrass]

The openers in this guide are god-awful, and it's really sad that an image macro with a lalafell and curse words gets that much publicity.

What are all you guys at 60 doing to compensate for TP issues when you don't have Goad/Spire or Paeon/Rook to rely on? Throwing out an Unmend every so often?

Blood Weapon takes cares of this pretty much singlehandedly. If you're running out of TP you're probably not stance swapping enough.

It's not "optimal DPS" sure - but I'd consider it optimal play. Humans are incapable of being perfect at all times. Saying "never" is a strong descriptor. I'd say "most of the time you want to use C&S w/ DA" but I completely see the value in it as a catch-up \ emergency tool.

Being able to always DA your CnS is optimal play, though. Having MP for when you need it, mitigation OR damage, is part of that.

[SpookyGhost]

The openers in this guide are god-awful, and it's really sad that an image macro with a lalafell and curse words gets that much publicity.

Usually helps to point out why openers are god-awful rather than just saying they are.

[Sweetgrass]

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1. None of them use Salted Earth first, when it is DRK's single highest pps off GCD skill.

2. None of them use Scourge as the first GCD, when it is DRK's single highest pps GCD skill.

3. None of them use Carve and Spit ASAP, when it is DRK's second highest pps off GCD skill and great for establishing enmity.

4. None of them use potions early to boost the above.

5. None of them use Dark Arts prior to pulling, when it has a 10 second duration and out of combat MP regen is extremely useful.

6. Using Unmend as the first GCD in a offtank rotation.

It's sloppy, barely thought out, and not even mathematically accurate. Compared to the DPS threads, it makes this guide look like a joke, which isn't fair to anyone that likes the class.

Here's something I made a while ago that would probably be useful if people were looking to minmax their play, but I have my doubts if it'll actually get rectified in the OP
http://puu.sh/qIvTK/fd2d93ce4a.jpg

[SpookyGhost]

While I agree they aren't the best openers,

2. None of them use Scourge as the first GCD, when it is DRK's single highest pps GCD skill.

3. None of them use Carve and Spit ASAP, when it is DRK's second highest pps off GCD skill and great for establishing enmity.

4. None of them use potions early to boost the above.

You may want to re-check them, as one is with NIN and one is without. TA isn't up on your first GCD, so with TA you want to be able to snapshot Scourge under it as well as use DACS under it. The potion delay is also due to this, since potions sit on a relatively long timer it's significantly better to get it's duration to line up with TA.

I do, however, agree with points 1, 5, and 6.

[Sweetgrass]

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Scourge is 16.7 pps, waiting any length of time on this for a 10% increase is not worth it.

Carve and Spit is a very slight DPS increase by using it after TA, yes, but it provides no initial enmity spike for tanking, and it's very questionable if it's possible to hold enmity without using it early, even with a NIN.

You misunderstood point 4, DRK's extremely high pps is best used ASAP, this includes under potion buff, as most of DRK's damage is done in the first 2-3 GCDs.

A lot of BRDs/MCHs will apply Foe Requiem/Hypercharge ASAP as well, so this will benefit the DRK that uses their skills ASAP. A lot of bosses also only give you windows to reapply skills like Scourge or Carve and Spit very sparingly, so being able to get off another usage before they phase/jump away/mechanics happen is a big deal.

[SpookyGhost]

Scourge is 16.7 pps, waiting any length of time on this for a 10% increase is not worth it.

Let's say you're delaying it by 3 GCDs - so HS -> SS -> SE -> Scourge. Let's also say this puts you 2-3 ticks ahead by applying it early. The only situation where this would negatively affect the delayed opener is if you, for some reason, decided to reapply Scourge for 2-3 ticks after applying it within your first GCD before the boss jumps away. As long as both Scourges tick for their entire duration and you end up at the same amount of Scourges (which you realistically should), then the one that involves at least one of those Scourges under the effect of TA is the better one. Only by 50 potency, mind you, but still a gain.

Carve and Spit is a very slight DPS increase by using it after TA, yes, but it provides no initial enmity spike for tanking, and it's very questionable if it's possible to hold enmity without using it early, even with a NIN.

You can understandably use it for enmity w/ no NIN as it does provide a nice burst with Grit, but with a NIN and proper Shade/Smokescreen usage I'd argue it's entirely possible to save it. Then again, in actual optimal play the DRK shouldn't be pulling to begin with, so... *shrug*

You misunderstood point 4, DRK's extremely high pps is best used ASAP, this includes under potion buff, as most of DRK's damage is done in the first 2-3 GCDs.

Sort of goes with my initial response in this post - unless you're somehow gaining an extra pot usage it's better to save it for when you have TA available to you. Barring TA, you can use the pot immediately as well as Scourge and DACS. TA is what throws everything out of whack, because aligning your abilities with it is what makes for an optimal opener - this is why in WAR's case the manual triple FC opener is bad because while you gain an extra FC, you lose the boost to your Berserk by not using it under TA.

A lot of BRDs/MCHs will apply Foe Requiem/Hypercharge ASAP as well, so this will benefit the DRK that uses their skills ASAP. A lot of bosses also only give you windows to reapply skills like Scourge or Carve and Spit very sparingly, so being able to get off another usage before they phase/jump away/mechanics happen is a big deal.

This sort of goes into a much more confusing and hard to really properly discuss subject, which is openers changing on a fight-by-fight basis. A5S is a good example of this, where the boss starts off taking reduced damage, so realistically if you're able to push him to small without a Prey happening then it's better to save CDs until he's small.

I don't think there's anything reasonably wrong with using Scourge first or not lining your DACS with TA, I think that as a sort of "catch all" opener your examples work just fine. I would even agree that your examples work much better than Taal's, though something to keep in mind is that those openers were created pre-VIT/STR changes and I feel like they were even created not too far into Gordias prog? Can't remember. Anyway, I'm really just nitpicking, I could even be wrong since I haven't played DRK in a long while so feel free to correct this post if it's full of misinformation.

[Sweetgrass]

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OF deleted my post, so tl;dr

2-3 ticks of Scourge is 80-120 potency, +50 potency from TA is a loss.

If you don't need enmity or aren't pulling, then that's an exception and you can probably slot CnS ahead, but a tailored comp isn't something everyone has, let alone a NIN to begin with.

Using pots to interact with your highest potencies doesn't give you more pots, it just makes your pot worth more.

No rotation was changed by the 3.2 attack power changes, just overall output, necessitating more enmity.

[SpookyGhost]

2-3 ticks of Scourge is 80-120 potency, +50 potency from TA is a loss.

That assumes you gain them, which you don't w/ equal Scourge usage (you wouldn't waste a GCD on a Scourge that only lasts 2-3 ticks).

If you don't need enmity or aren't pulling, then that's an exception and you can probably slot CnS ahead, but a tailored comp isn't something everyone has, let alone a NIN to begin with.

This is true, but also why there were two OT openers in the OP, one with and one without.

Using pots to interact with your highest potencies doesn't give you more pots, it just makes your pot worth more.

S'what I mean, s'why you want to use it under TA if TA is available.

No rotation was changed by the 3.2 attack power changes, just overall output, necessitating more enmity.

Meant more the change resulting in less enmity out of tank stance, leading to more necessity for a stronger opener as MT (or just have WAR pull).

[Sweetgrass]

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You don't gain them, you lose them at the start of the fight and don't get the potency back, that's the case with every single optimization in this game.

OT = offtank = enmity is not relevant, let alone other glaring problems like starting with Unmend.

You missed m'point entirely, and I actually made a mistake earlier: Holding DRK skills at all is not viable. Waiting any more than 6 seconds for Trick Attack is a pps loss on Carve and Spit, which isn't actually possible, even with Fey Wind + the most GCD-clipping Suiton rotation possible for a NIN.

Yes, that's double evidence for why early CnS is optimal.

[Hierro]

http://puu.sh/qIvTK/fd2d93ce4a.jpg

I like what you made. I once posted in a thread some months ago about MT DRK openers, and I got some flack for mentioning I like to use unmend>plunge>scourge for my pulls. You could check here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...er-as-mt/page6 , but the point is there was quite a bit of discussion against the use, either due to damage lost from being done in grit, or because it reduces distance the boss travels to the party at the start, resulting in a longer distance for the dps to travel to reach their target which translates into a lowered raid-wide dps. Thought it'd be interesting for you to check out to refine your opener, or if you disagree could you explain how your way could be better than the other thread's suggestions?