The Definitive Dark Knight Guide

[JayCommon]

Blood weapon? How are you making this work while tanking? Using grit to get back in defensive mode eats up like half of what you'd possibly gain from blood weapon.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that in endgame, things hit too hard to warrant being out of Grit. You also can't drop Grit to pop Blood Weapon and go back into Grit. Going back into Grit while Blood Weapon is active, deactivates it. It's pointless to MT out of Grit for most things anyway. You might be doing more DPS but your causing your healer to have to focus you more. I run with an AST most of the time and they have pretty damn respectable DPS also. The trade-off isn't worth it for most things post-60.


Try MT Ravana EX and eat one of it's tank-busters in Darkside alone. Have fun restarting the instance if you didn't pop considerable CDs i.e. all of them. That thing can hit by 10-12k mitigated with Shadowskin in Grit stance.


He's still right, though. DA C&S is huge DPS and should always be used with DA. Dark Knights have plenty of MP regeneration tools at their disposal. If you find yourself hurting for MP, you either aren't using your tools or you are going a little spam-happy with Dark Arts or maybe Unleashes in big pulls. But Blood Price/Syphon Strike should be sufficient to keep you topped in either situation and you shouldn't really ever need to blow a C&S for 800 MP. Not when you could be critting it for over 3k...higher if your gear is better than mine.

Just a tip: If you begin your pull with a Dark Arts Power Slash combo you will literally have enough enmity for a large amount of full encounters. DK enmity combo is enormous compared to even a butcher's block, since we have to play the MP management game. After that first combo you should not be using your Power Slash 1-2-3 any longer (or at least for 2-3 mins; if the encounter is long you will need to refresh it), but you need to open with it to cement your hate because good DPS can easily creep back up if you don't Dark Arts it.

You can do either combo that branches from Syphon Strike after that exclusively and you really shouldn't ever be running into MP issues. Even with big pulls on trash mobs, pop Blood Price. Most of the time you are getting more MP than you can use. Spam Unleash, throw in a good aligned DA/Dark Passenger, drop Salted Earth. You should have hate for days and full MP by the time Blood Price runs out. Coordinate with your healer though!! If you have a WHM and they pop in to begin a big pull with Holy spam, you just wasted a Blood price because the mobs will be stunned. If you blow CD's while Blood Price is up, then you are nerfing your own MP regen but that also puts stress on the healer. If there are a lot of mobs, I will usually pair Dark Dance with Blood Price since Parrying something still causes you to actually get hit by it. If there are 4+ mobs then even with that active you are normally still taking enough damage to keep your MP up.

So I do agree, and the way he puts it is right. Never probably is the right word to use. If you are doing your job correctly you shouldn't ever have to waste a C&S outside of Dark Arts.

[Daega]

I'm sorry.. did you say Crit for 3k? I got a crit last night on Soul Eater for 1950... which I don't see often and I'm i169 I think.

[JayCommon]

I'm sorry.. did you say Crit for 3k? I got a crit last night on Soul Eater for 1950... which I don't see often and I'm i169 I think.

Yeah, the crit values have wild ranges now that Crit rate affects how hard your crit can hit for. There are wider extremes now. Some of my crits are around 2200, and others are in the 3k range. I think you're higher i-level then me but not by much, and I can't remember my crit rate at the moment but I'm pretty sure it's over 500. Ahh, also I still have 2 i145 VIT accessories with about 28 strength in them combined.

I know it's a bit off-topic to branch into this subject, but my tank partner for raid is a warrior and he has seen crits on his Fell Cleave of anywhere from 5k to 6300 in turn 5 (so with 20% echo so normal content numbers won't be that high). But the ranges are pretty wide now for what a crit can actually give you.

@JayCommon I thought Ravana Ex's tank buster was supposed to be shared? I've seen plenty of videos of people solo tanking him though, specifically a strength stacked WAR eat it in Deliverance and watched him drop to ~10% HP, made me cringe inside as a tank, no amount of tank DPS is worth that butt hole clencher!

It is, but we went in with no video because we like to least experience content before memorizing it. We had 1 person with us who had beat it a day before we went in and was giving us some pointers but only after we face pulled a few times. It's survivable, but it's absolutely not something you want to eat by yourself more than once. I cringed everytime I saw it too lol. Getting hit by 12k with mitigation up isn't fun for anyone!!

[Daega]

Yeah, the crit values have wild ranges now that Crit rate affects how hard your crit can hit for. There are wider extremes now. Some of my crits are around 2200, and others are in the 3k range. I think you're higher i-level then me but not by much, and I can't remember my crit rate at the moment but I'm pretty sure it's over 500. Ahh, also I still have 2 i145 VIT accessories with about 28 strength in them combined.

I know it's a bit off-topic to branch into this subject, but my tank partner for raid is a warrior and he has seen crits on his Fell Cleave of anywhere from 5k to 6300 in turn 5 (so with 20% echo so normal content numbers won't be that high). But the ranges are pretty wide now for what a crit can actually give you.

So you're saying you hit 2200-3k with Echo? I hit 1950 in a lvl 60 dungeon no echo. I imagine with the 20% or so buff I would get a bit closer to that too.

[PROBOUND]

If you blow CD's while Blood Price is up, then you are nerfing your own MP regen but that also puts stress on the healer.
If there are a lot of mobs, I will usually pair Dark Dance with Blood Price since Parrying something still causes you to actually get hit by it.

Thanks for the tip! This is one of the main things i think needs to be discussed more is CD rotation on Big AOE pulls while Blood Price is up.

Many have mentioned not to DA + DD due to the evasion negating the MP regen of Blood Price. DD without DA seems like a good choice since as you mentioned your still taking damage even with 20% parry.

My Question now is: Which would be the better cooldown to use in this situation. ShadowSkin vs. Dark Dance ?

Shadowskin seems like it would be better at normalising the DMG we take but Dark Dance seems it would replenish more MP due to not all the attacks being parried.

[Docfiord_Fowling]

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Check out my AoE tanking section of the guide for MP efficiency, DPS, and Aggro.

In regards to MP regeneration with Blood Price, JayCommon is incorrect - defensive cooldowns do not reduce the amount of MP absorbed.

With this in mind, when I pull a big pack, I will usually use Blood Price and Shadowskin together. You can't beat flat damage reduction. As Blood Price is close to falling off, I will use a Dark Arted Dark Dance for the evasion as well as a Dark Arted Dark Passenger for the Blind. In my opinion, this is the best cooldown combo for trash and since Blood Price is not up anymore, you aren't losing out on any MP.

[Docfiord_Fowling]

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C&S is only 50 potency more than a DA/SE and does not heal. If you have plenty of MP, go for the extra damage; but to say if you aren't managing your MP if need to use C&S for mana is incorrect. By using Blood Price and C&S for MP, you are able to keep alternating Delirium and DA/SE combos much longer. This is more DPS and more incoming healing. It seems that you are just happy to see big numbers when C&S crits.

A Dark art Power Slash is 6.5x enmity compared to PLD and WAR 5.5x. I'm not really convinced the cost of a DA is worth the extra 1x enmity.

If you blow CD's while Blood Price is up, then you are nerfing your own MP regen but that also puts stress on the healer

Not true. Defensive cooldowns DO NOT reduce the amount of MP regen from Blood Price. If you take damage, your receive the same amount of MP each time. Pop your cooldowns, reduce stress on the healers and enjoy your MP regen.

[Malusion]

C&S is only 50 potency more than a DA/SE and does not heal. If you have plenty of MP, go for the extra damage; but to say if you aren't managing your MP if need to use C&S for mana is incorrect. By using Blood Price and C&S for MP, you are able to keep alternating Delirium and DA/SE combos much longer. This is more DPS and more incoming healing. It seems that you are just happy to see big numbers when C&S crits.

You have to count how much potency increases with DA, not the total. Dark Arts adds 350 potency to C&S, and 140 to SE. Trying to count the potency before DA that they do as part of the amount gained doesn't really work.

Edit: As a side note just to echo your other point, Blood Price mana gained is indeed not based on damage taken, it gives a flat amount of MP back per hit regardless of how much the hit is for.

[Gardes]

You have to count how much potency increases with DA, not the total. Dark Arts adds 350 potency to C&S, and 140 to SE. Trying to count the potency before DA that they do as part of the amount gained doesn't really work.

Edit: As a side note just to echo your other point, Blood Price mana gained is indeed not based on damage taken, it gives a flat amount of MP back per hit regardless of how much the hit is for.

But shouldn't the mp you gain from non DA cns be counted as that cns's contribution to damage? Like, 150 potency + 800 something worth of mana vs 450 + (-1800mp)? I mean, I guess it's hard to quantify when you cant immediately replace that 800 mp to a dark arts (being 1800mp cost and all). But then again, blood price mp gain seems high enough for it to not matter (in the long run of a nonstop 10 min battle too? haven't tried)...but what about in grit stance as mt when incoming mp varies and therefore mp has varying, uh, 'values'?

That said, 150 cns's mp gain seems to be just enough for an unleash, with 3 targets will give you 150 + 300 potency at near 0 mp cost while da cns gives you 450 potency for the cost of 1800 mp (Am I wrong?). But then again, it's 1gcd and 1ogcd vs 2 ogcd. Based on time the latter has the 1st beat, based on mp efficiency the former has the latter beat. Same goes for single target cns issue. The DA cns is better for immediate damage and if mp isnt at a premium but it is...right? Where am I even going?

[Xenosan]

But shouldn't the mp you gain from non DA cns be counted as that cns's contribution to damage?

C&S unbuffed rewards half the MP needed for a Dark Arts. C&S has a 60 second cooldown. It'll take 2 C&Ss (1 or 2min) for the MP return to provide a 'free' Dark Arts that you otherwise wouldn't have had access to - and you're sacrificing 700 potency to get it.

Still though - you're a tank, so EHP > DPS if appropriate. If you're in a scenario where you're taking high inc damage and you feel a self-heal is more important than a DPS boost - then yeah obey that priority instead and just vanilla C&S - which will move DA'd SE's availability up 1 syphon combo.

edit: And yeah I agree in AoE/Multi target situations C&S can be better strictly for the MP because it gives a 'free' Dark Passenger with each use.

Passenger is 30s CD, C&S 60s CD. Every other Passenger is free.