Summoner Changes Compiled: Is there more?

[Havenchild]

Ahh okay thanks. So (if i'm understanding properly) i can use my 3 aetherflow abilities, leave dreadwyrm trance till aetherflow is almost ready again, go into dreadwyrm and then use the aetherflows to keep myself in trance longer?

Well the first DreadWyrm stance with its 15s duration, would likely still fall off before you use all of your AF abilities again because you have both to refresh DoTs and use abilities like Ruin III as well as just less damage to burn your AF stacks that quick in Dreadwyrm too but soon after you would be able to go into it again after it falls off. However, you kinda should think longterm with it as well and think how will holding your DreadWyrm stance better affect your damage. Something like this comes in handy in dungeon pulls for example. You could unload with Raging + Dread in this pull, or you can swap between the two or at least have Dread up for almost all of them when you space out the AF usage and Dreadwyrm stacks.

Some people feel going into DreadWyrm (outside of the initial opener) immediately is ideal but I find it's not entirely true. Dreadwyrm lasts for 15 seconds, but you have basically 30 seconds of time to fill using it that doesn't cut into your next Aetherflow usage. This means you have 15 secondish window to hold onto it and use it more effectively. You also have to consider when to use the next AF skill that will unlock Dreadwyrm stance for you. Making sure Dreadwyrm is up when it's needed/wanted in the future is pretty big. In the case of dungeons, spreading out your AF usage, or using a stack at the right time, to elongate the Aetherial timer is worth it.

[Fatshine]

Front page updated with more observations!

[Crevox]

Just got Dreadwyrm Trance, and I have to say, I'm really annoyed about it. I was already unhappy that they decided they weren't going to add more pets or do anything with our current stuff, but now after actually getting the trance, it's worse than I imagined. I thought it was going to be an interesting, fun little stance we could use that would look cool and add a new mechanic, but I personally hate it so far (beyond just the measly spell effect, too).

The skill is annoying to use. It puts a huge riff into our rotation, mucking everything up. It's very bad QoL how it's currently designed.

Because the Aethertrail stacks only have a 30 second duration, you are now forced to use your aetherflow at set intervals and not as freely as you could before based on fight needs. Before you could hold your Aetherflows a bit and control when and where you use them, but now, you just put yourself at risk at wasting the Aethertrails and losing your Dreadwyrm Trance. The trance itself only lasts a measly 15 seconds with no way to control that, which only hurts you even more, because you are forced to struggle to make use of the tiny amount of time to snapshot your DoTs (if applicable, extremely difficult due to the timing of everything, dots may not even need it) and abuse Ruin III.

You want to actually go into Dreadwyrm Trance when it's most optimal, but the timing on that depends on so many factors. There are lots of timers (dots, aetherflow, raging strikes, tri-disaster, etc) that all work into when and where you should use it, and yet you will be punished if you don't use it as much as possible. Combine that with the fact you want to cast Ruin III as much as possible in it, and then there's still Deathflare to consider at 60. This is all ignoring the actual fight mechanics and when it would make most sense to use it during the fight; it's difficult enough to optimize with everything else, while ensuring you are not wasting Aethertrails, Aetherflows, or leaving other cooldowns waiting, but you're also going to have to take in mind DPS burst phases, dodging mechanics, and much much more. If you use the skill improperly, you can actually very easily hurt your DPS more than gain anything out of it.

All of it combined is just frustrating and bad quality of life. Having to actually activate it too just adds another ability we have to use on top of the large amount we already have to weave in between Ruins and other things. I'll probably get more used to it as I use it, but I really don't know what they were thinking.

Summoner is already one of the least played (if not, the least) DPS. This skill adds a huge amount of difficulty (both hidden complexity and just straight up complexity) to it, and is actually harmful to the player if they use it incorrectly. If they were trying to make Summoner "cool", they failed, because the skill is short, boring, and annoying to use. You don't feel like you're drawing the energy of Bahamut at all, especially since you only get one special thing (Deathflare) with it other than the damage increase and Ruin III. Deathflare is great and all (yes, it's good), but it's still ultimately just a slightly stronger Fester every so often, or 2 Painflares.

I don't know why they find it so difficult to make Summoner about pets and summoning powerful creatures, especially when that's what everyone wanted from the beginning (the job poll before ARR launched, the top vote wanted a "pet class") and what everyone has been posting on the forum for the past year+. There's nothing wrong with the dots and all that, but I have no idea why they insist on attaching it to "Summoner." We literally got nothing new for our pets this expansion except QoL fixes, spell speed, and Radiant Shield becoming not useless. No new pets, but also not even a single new skill.

I was disappointed when they announced they weren't updating the pets or adding new ones, but thought the Bahamut stuff would still at least be somewhat interesting, but it's not. The new skills (Tri-Disaster, Painflare) are useful, but the other three are just.. sigh. If they weren't going to do pets, they could've at least done so much more with these. It also doesn't make sense that they would go through the entire development cycle of Heavensward saying "we're adding new Egi" then right before they release the game, they say "btw, we changed our mind." They gave nobody any time for feedback on it and acted like it would be the coolest thing ever, when it's far from it.

SE has only made me more sad about Summoner in this game.

[Spellbinder]

They already said at one point that they are adding more pets skills.

Unless you can find a source for this (a Japanese source would be preferable), I'd have to say this statement is false.

Anywho, I think the OP has covered all the changes except for potions possibly affecting pet damage, but if I find anything else I'll post here.

Carry on with the thread. Hopefully this doesn't get derailed any further.

[Dioptase]

Personally i love trance after messing with it a bit. The biggest thing ive noticed is how you can mess up the whole thing if your not thinking ahead. Using it just in fates i can do a nice little burst every minute but i constantly had to think what am i doing with my next stack. This job got alot more complicated and isnt for someone who juat wants to faceroll

[Zanther]

Unless you can find a source for this (a Japanese source would be preferable), I'd have to say this statement is false.

Its in one of the letters from the producers videos. Best I could find before bed is this

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/21...v-heavensward/


also here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oP4hj4CGBs

[Spellbinder]

Its in one of the letters from the producers videos. Best I could find before bed is this

http://www.siliconera.com/2015/05/21...v-heavensward/

Ah, the live letter again. I've mentioned this in other threads, but that was an error in the interpretation. He was saying rather than add more Egi, in the long term, it would be better to focus on the summoner him or herself. In short, no new skills for Egi. The updated (and corrected) live letter digests also state as much.

Live Letter Digest (EN)

Instead of adding a pet whose abilities and effects are not different from others, they decided it would be better to increase the amount of actions for summoner to make it a more interesting job.

Live Letter Digest (JP)

また使用する技の効果が同じペットを増やすよりも、召喚士が使用するアクションをしっかりと増やした方が長い目で見た場合、面白いジョブになるという考えです。

[FreeLancer4]

I think they mentioned they would improve pet/pet skills, which they have what with needing less acc, being affected by food etc. Certainly could of done more, the egis really don't act like much more then turrets still that add nothing but additional DPS. Some kind of actual pet utility would of done wonders for the job as far as pet interaction goes. Cross your fingers that they add to pets in the next expansion.

As for the new changes, they certainly are welcomed. Its addressed some of our weaker points and also added in a bit of flavour to SMN what with the Dreadwyrm trance/flare being more akin to summoning then fester ever was. I was/am disappointment that we wont be getting new pets, but I understand the reasoning behind it and having a glamour system will allow us to potentially have the new primal version egis as they are released, as Im sure our primal slaying days are far from over.

[Fatshine]

Snip

So far, I am glad the direction they decided to go. I hope they further work on current pet abilities and make them even better. To me it seems Garuda/Titan skills were unchanged, just Ifrit. Then introduce a pet glamour system.

[Crevox]

The new summoner abilities make it so I actually have to pay attention to what I'm doing now (balancing aether flows and attunements). Oh no, I actually have to use my brain before I go crazy with my class mechanics, and not blindly smash them whenever I want? The horror!.

None of what you said means it's good game design. Yes, it adds difficulty to the class, but for what reason? The DPS gain granted is marginal, and it hurts our freedom and ability to control our class in so many ways, again, making it a marginal increase at best in optimal situations, and easily a decrease if not used properly, regardless of whether or not you personally realize it. The ability could have easily added increased dps, more interesting gameplay, and make it feel fun and cool to be empowered by Bahamut without being so disruptive to our freedom/ability to control our DPS, but the way it is currently designed, that is not the case.

The instant you decide to hold off on dots in order to "prepare for it", or hold your cooldowns to sync up with it, or other things, you're going to lose DPS which in the long run will just be made up by the trance, if you're lucky. We lose movement (having to use Ruin III priority over Ruin II), we lose ability usage timings (having to go into trance), and we lose a large portion of our ability to dynamically adjust to fights and sync our timers with them. It also just implements huge traps for inexperienced (mostly) and experienced players alike. Using the trance incorrectly will result in a DPS loss, and using Ruin III after it has faded (if you are not paying attention to the timer very closely) will destroy your MP, and more. The entire ability just has so many bad quality of life elements attached to it.

You also stick a lot of words and thoughts into me that I never even stated.

The bahamut mechanic works with this game and expansion because

Yes, they can make it make sense from a lore standpoint, but that doesn't make it a good idea from a gameplay standpoint, at least the way they implemented it. As you already know, I completely understand how you are supposed to use it in order to be optimal, but again, that still does not make it "fun" or make it good quality of life. In the end, it's an opinion, and I feel like the ability could've been tweaked more to be more interesting and usable than how it is right now. It is extremely damaging to how we play and forces us to play a specific way, when before we had so much more freedom and were about to adjust based on the fight.

If you don't understand the game design concept of "quality of life", then you will not understand what I'm trying to say. If you do not push Summoner DPS to the limit like I do (and understand theorycrafting DPS etc), then you also will not understand. That's fine, but there's no need to insult my opinion just because you disagree.

They already said at one point that they are adding more pets skills.

They said they are not doing this after changing their mind.

There's apparently plans for a pet glamour type system also.

This has nothing to do with my post.

Hopefully this doesn't get derailed any further.

Discussing Summoner changes in a thread about summoner changes is not derailing a thread.