How is BLM in new expansion?

[Aikaal]

• BLM is high risk, high reward (Enochian loss-> 30 sec penalty at worst and a huge DPS loss)
• SMN is low risk, high reward (worst case you recast 1 dot)

So, I'm working on my things and I'm really starting to wonder if SMN really have that huge advantage. I do give they lose less damage in progression but SMN is no exception of progression. While I do agree there are things that probably people didn't take account that I did when I was leveling my SMN. Having to move while you cast a Miasma, Bio II or Shadow is annoying. You lose your cast and you lose DoT uptime. This usually go up to 3 to 6 seconds per DoT. Add that you've lost a GCD to cast a Ruin or Ruin II that's another 80 potency lost so it is about a 115 Potency lost everytime you have to move and lose a cast for Summoner.

I would also assume (I haven't work on SMN yet) that you won't Fester if you don't have your your 3 DoTs up so you could lose Dreadwyrm Trance uptime here. While Tri-Disaster looks great, you'll most-likely clip some DoTs as they won't end at the same time. This cooldown is best used during Dreadwyrm Trance to get extra Ruin III and buffed DoTs.

Well, I was one of the first to say that BLM has the obvious disadvantage and it's easy to see it as our spam ability is 504 Potency and if we lose Enochian we spam 324/468 Potency spells. Not to mention Thunderclouds are more viable without Enochian up.

I have the trust of my group to go as BLM so I'll go there and see for myself for Alex Savage. Melees are also affected by progression has they miss more positionals on clouded territories. If someone truly wish to point a job's supremacy, there's always been one and only one method : maths. Maths do not lie. Maths can be verified. Words can be twisted.

I also went back to Lalafell, my madness ended as Lalafells are the master race of BLM. I've done some work and I feel that with base 23 Piety in certain scenarios, Lalas end (with Piety buff) with 713 MP after a B3 which is enough to cast T1 over B1 which is still 60 extra potency and more buffed by Spell Speed than B1.

I'll have more time and I am currently building on rotations so bare with me on that.

There is one thing that is the absolute truth in progression. If you run WHM + AST. SMN is required for Super Virus.

[Sleigh]

There is one thing that is the absolute truth in progression. If you run WHM + AST. SMN is required for Super Virus.

I actually don't think that's true with Disable around (10% damage down on one attack, 60s recast, works on one attack). The way I look at it, if you can survive without Disable but with Supervirus, you can usually survive with Disable and without Supervirus. Both would be very handy to have but as of right now I wouldn't necessarily let it alter your comp choice, as, aside from a purely magical enemy here or there, or Akh Morns, one attack is all that's been needed to get debuffed in the past.

Also I think people might be a little in love with BLM right now (me included I admit) due to its supremacy in Ravana, a fight where you can 99% of the time stay in place in good kill groups. I think once some real mechanics, stuff where the entire team must participate with relative frequency and urgency, come about, I think people in progressive groups might become slightly disenchanted with BLM, at least for a time. Personally I'm just trying to up my skills with both for now and will roll from there on Tuesday.

[ekental]

115 Potency lost everytime you have to move and lose a cast for Summoner.

It's comparative.

First. SMN is more mobile because all of BLM's spells that matter have cast times and some of SMN ones do not, also Ruin II.

You've summed the opportunity cost & the potency cost of the spell you're casting, which makes no sense.
You only lose the potency of that spell cast at worst. Additionally you can immediately Ruin II to mitigate the issue.

On BLM, where if you can't stutter step it you scathe, which is an opportunity cost of Fire IV. That's a big loss. Compared to a SMN, which was at worst 3 sec off a DoT.

You already know the potency of every spell and you can math out what you lose if you move. Plenty of people have already done so. Hai Hai did some good work on it AFAIK.

BLM and SMN aren't that far off in DPS on a dummy. It takes no stretch of the imagination to see SMN pull ahead if there's reasonable movement in the new raid.

[Elix_Moarbase]

It's comparative.

Yeah, it's to the point now where people see the truth. Run as a blm with a smn in any instance, and you'll quickly find our restrictions are pointless as the dmg is too similar. Imo, blm is currently pointless outside of style. Maybe that's how they wanted it? But, why not go with the class that has better aoe, the same (or higher with movement) dmg on single, and actual utility?

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

[Clarkamite]

Seriously, find a good smn to play with and the truth is so obvious.

We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

[HaroldSaxon]

We'll see how this turns out in Alexander but I can think of one thing that BLM definitely has over SMN. It's up to the masses to decide how useful this is but our initial up front burst is definitely better. This is noticeable with things like adds. BLM has always been the better add nuker than SMN. My SMN buddy mentions how much easier Ravana kills would be with me as a BLM in the party. The group he currently farms with runs double SMN, NIN, and something else not a BLM and after both him and the other SMN ramp up the butterflies still have health left. Two casts from me and they would be dead and you wouldn't have to wait around for dots to finish them off.

Now obviously this isn't necessarily the greatest thing ever but there's definitely some instances where an add needs to be burned down quick and a Summoner simply can't do what a BLM can there.

My personal opinion is both casters are in a great spot and I'm willing to bet that when we start raiding, our group will be just fine with our current DPS comp of SMN, BLM, NIN, BRD. Just running dungeons right now with my NIN and we already destroy things. Can't imagine once we put the whole team (who's specialty has always been DPS) together.

> 3 second casts
> Low HP Add Nuker

Pick One.

You're group may be "just fine" with a BLM, but it certainly would be better with a MNK or DRG instead of the BLM.

[Aikaal]

It's comparative.

snip.

So, I was told about that SMN Guide but I didn't read it. I'd never read 66 pages, it's too long. I like the guy and I've played with him and he's a really good player but when it comes to theorycraft... I'm not sure. 90% of what he wrote is most-likely unneeded and this includes the SMN vs BLM 13 pages he pointed. The only argument I need to say is his document's title is "The 3.0 Summoner: An Extensive Guide". There is zero reason to even say the word BLM as someone should compare them in a proper document. Even worst, since it's called a SMN Guide it leads to players that main SMN looks at it and not main BLM and obviously everybody main SMN will agree that their job is better. You can't get a better example of massive biased group there.

I'll agree that SMN lose less DPS than BLM on mobility but his claims has no maths. He did not compare a BLM rotation during movement versus a SMN rotation.

I'll give one quick example of DPS loss. First, you are wrong when you say you only lose the spell potency. A good Summoner will recast a dot when it's less than 3 seconds. So if you had to move while you are casting Miasma I (for example) you'd have to move away and ruin II. This means you'll lose 3 secs where this DoT does not exist on your target. This is a 35 potency lost. What would happen in that situation if your Miasma two had 2 secs left and Bio II 5 secs left. You'd lose an extra 35 potency for a total of 70 potency. If we extend this fictive scenario that you have to move, cast and move again. You'd lose a total of 105 potencies only for those 2 DoTs. There is a high possibility all Shadow Flare, Bio, Bio II and Miasma are delayed because of that although you can Bio easily has it is instant. You quickly realize that you can easily lose 105-135 or even 175 potency has you'll focus on surviving mechanics more than upkeep your maximal DPS during progression.

This situation for a BLM. F4 > Move Scathe > F1 > Move Scathe > F4 > F4. Scathe is 120 Potency. If you calc 100 Potency with 20% chance of double Potency. After 5 it gives you 600 Potency. 600/5 = 120. You gain 240 Potency for losing 504 Potency. It's a lost of 264 Potency which is a greater lost than Summoners.

Where I want to get: BLM are currently higher in single target DPS than Summoner. In that example, my Swiftcast is always for 2 secs left B4 Enochians or movement. I could replace 1 scathe for that swiftcast and save 384 Potency. Before someone says "You can't F1 > Scathe > F4 twice" I can easily without Leylines do F1 > F4 x3 > B3. And Swiftcast for SMN, at best saves about 70-100 potency.

So when you say you can easily compare SMN to BLM I am not sure Sir. I would like to see your maths.

[Hontaro]

snip

There are some points that you're missing here.
Depending on the nature of the movement, SMN has a few tools minimize the downtime of his casts. For example: T13 Megaflare. You see the cast coming and your DoT has 3 seconds left. Instead of refreshing the DoT, you can use Ruin2, then move while GCD runs and refresh it afterwards. Alternatively, you can decide to refresh your DoTs early if you know that a movement-heavy mechanic will come.

Though you could argue that BLM can do the same, it's not truly right because your FireIV rotation is limited on the duration of AF3 and Enochian, especially the former restricts you very much because you can only use 2 GCDs (3 when switching to UB3) before you have to use Fire1 again.

Another point is that FireIV has a 3 second cast time (no spellspeed) vs. the 2.5 seconds of SMN DoTs. This can be crucial when slide-casting out of AoEs, so SMN might not lose a GCD where the BLM will definitely do.

[Hontaro]

Also, with a certain PIE threshold and under certain conditions, the basic BLM rotation changes to AF3 -> Fire IV x2 -> Fire1 -> Fire IV x3 -> UB3, which means that you can use a third Fire IV at the end while still having enough mana and time to switch to UB3. With your "movement" rotation, you will lose out on 2 Fire IVs in this case, which is an even more severe DPS loss.
Another thing I want to point out is that yes, it is possible to "F1 > Scathe > F4 twice", but only if Scathe is cast directly after F1, which means that if you have to cancel mid-cast and use Scathe afterwards, the duration of AF3 will not be enough.