Am I only one who finds autoattack so slow ?

[MrKupo]

If you mean the AOE toggle, SE is planning on removing that in the future. No word on how exactly we'll AOE afterwards.

As for the topic, based on how it's implemented, AA is fine for certain classes (or tanking, any class) but it's a hindrance for others. I honestly feel it's a stepback for SE considering their other games, offline though they may be, are faster and more engaging.

Actually, i didn't mean the AOE toggle. I'm talking about the numerous set of skills that have AOEs that aren't just a circle around the character, which emphasizes moving around. For example, fighting a Peist head on is generally a bad idea because of the breath attacks. Fighting behind it will get you more damage but you will get hit harder more often because of the tail attacks. So it seems that those who dont want to get hit hard stay to the sides.

The idea of cone AOEs, enemies in the line of fire, and incapitation are all concepts that are new or seldom been used before.

Incapitation has been seen in games like Monster Hunter and Vindictus, but here it requires a little bit more knowledge of skills, classes, mobs, and location.

And that peist on is only one example of how AOE makes the battling more exciting.
The reason i called LNC out is because not only is that my main class, AOE is the most important aspect of playing LNC well.

PS: I realize this has less to do with autoattack, but to say the battling is boring doesnt make much sense to me. That's not to say that autoattack is too slow or too fast. If they were to speed up autoattack, that would mean they would have to speed up the pace of battling overall. It's less time to think and react when this game is that sort of game.

[Konachibi]

My experiences from combat since I started playing:

Pugilist: Stacking evasion allowed me to constantly keep using moves like Jarring Strike almost constantly, the only time it felt slow was before I gained an evasion technique but at those levels enemies die so quick it doesn't matter. Now whenever I enter combat it's constant button pressing from the get-go, the first attack being light strike and then constantly using evasion counter moves as well as skills to increase my evasion or damage and using second wind when low on health, whilst at the same time building TP to use much stronger attacks, then never more than 3-5 seconds when I'm not pressing a button.

Conjurer: Constant spell casting as well as adding buffs, debuffs, heals and regens to keep myself alive whilst keeping the damage on, the only waiting time is whilst casting spells, that's pretty normal for a spell-casting class in an MMO.

Thaumaturge: Exactly the same as Conjurer, always spell-casting, stopping for even a few seconds could cause death.

Archer: Need I say more? Light-strike constantly then spew off a few TP moves like Penetrating Shot, Shadowbind etc. Always pressing buttons and moving around.

Gladiator: Though I haven't played this class much at all I still found I was using skills often, at first it was slow waiting for TP build from auto-attack but as more skills were gained through levels there were more buttons to press and more reasons to move around, the GLA tank in my LS is constantly throwing out skills at level 30.

Those are the classes I've played with at the moment, sure it'd be nice for some of their basic attacks like Light Strike etc. to have a smaller cooldown but still every class from the list above can have very fast-paced combat. If you're finding it all too easy and you're never using skills try removing some skills from your action bar that aren't part of the class you're playing (e.g/ take cure and protect away from PUG action bar), add more skills that are relevant to your current class, and try it out then. If it still feels slow and boring then try fighting tougher enemies. I've played a lot of different MMO's and trust me, there aren't a lot out there that has RPG style combat faster than FFXIVs.

[Physic]

My experiences from combat since I started playing:

Pugilist: Stacking evasion allowed me to constantly keep using moves like Jarring Strike almost constantly, the only time it felt slow was before I gained an evasion technique but at those levels enemies die so quick it doesn't matter. Now whenever I enter combat it's constant button pressing from the get-go, the first attack being light strike and then constantly using evasion counter moves as well as skills to increase my evasion or damage and using second wind when low on health, whilst at the same time building TP to use much stronger attacks, then never more than 3-5 seconds when I'm not pressing a button.

Conjurer: Constant spell casting as well as adding buffs, debuffs, heals and regens to keep myself alive whilst keeping the damage on, the only waiting time is whilst casting spells, that's pretty normal for a spell-casting class in an MMO.

Thaumaturge: Exactly the same as Conjurer, always spell-casting, stopping for even a few seconds could cause death.

Archer: Need I say more? Light-strike constantly then spew off a few TP moves like Penetrating Shot, Shadowbind etc. Always pressing buttons and moving around.

Gladiator: Though I haven't played this class much at all I still found I was using skills often, at first it was slow waiting for TP build from auto-attack but as more skills were gained through levels there were more buttons to press and more reasons to move around, the GLA tank in my LS is constantly throwing out skills at level 30.

Those are the classes I've played with at the moment, sure it'd be nice for some of their basic attacks like Light Strike etc. to have a smaller cooldown but still every class from the list above can have very fast-paced combat. If you're finding it all too easy and you're never using skills try removing some skills from your action bar that aren't part of the class you're playing (e.g/ take cure and protect away from PUG action bar), add more skills that are relevant to your current class, and try it out then. If it still feels slow and boring then try fighting tougher enemies. I've played a lot of different MMO's and trust me, there aren't a lot out there that has RPG style combat faster than FFXIVs.

You didnt play before so ill tell you pugilist was even better at that style before, being able to put light strike buff up whenever they wanted as long as they balanced their stamina, also counter tp ws had low to almost no cost stamina wise which actually made them more valuable than they are now, because they were low tp, and low stamina. Now if you got a good tp ramp going, you can basically ignore them.

Archer con and thaum arent effected by AA, and probably got some benefit from stamina removal, but since cast times generally trumped stamina, they play fairly similar to before.

the real effect is on melee classes

[OMEGA_HACK]

All you chil'runs and your ADHD, AA is at a good pace, sheesh. The ONLY problem with the auto-attack revamping was that they changed the attacking types for the worst.

Honestly stuff like: Pierce, Full Thrust, Light Thrust (using Lancer as an example) Should have become separate from the skills and they should have used that as something you could change your auto-attack to (instead of a single use ability with a cooldown). Each of the types of attack would have of course changed the auto-attack speed slightly (Full Thrust taking longest intervals between attacks while Light Thrust being the fastest, etc etc).

That's really the only big problem with the auto-attack system. This talk of being too slow is just silly imo (Just take your Ritalin already >.<)

just because you refuse to see it does not mean it is not. if it wasn't slower they wouldn't have stated they will be adding in multi hit attacks and haste to speed battle back up. that is a direct response because they do realize the system is slower now.

it can be fixed and likely will be, but that does not change the fact that at this point it is slower.

Side Note: They add multi-hit and haste into a game to introduce a new DYNAMIC of a battle (in this case: Speed) not because the system is currently broken, and to think that way is absolutely absurd, if the system was broken then all they would need to do is change the auto-attack algorithms, not introduce new ways to fight monsters.

[Konachibi]

@OMEGA_HACK: Is your sig in 3D? Looking at it makes my eyesight fuzzy @.@

[OMEGA_HACK]

Its your eyes playing tricks on you :P (Or are they?)

[OMEGA_HACK]

Actually darkstarpoet one of the problems with the older system was you HAD to wait for your stamina to fill up before you could do anything it wasn't like it was @100% at the start, so you basically start a fight having to wait (ideally if you want to have the maximum potency of attack on a monster). Not to mention the double wait you had to have on spells, this isn't a player problem either; this was a stamina bar functionality problem. For example, Cast Cure, you had to have enough stamina to cast it, then you had to wait the additional time to actually cast it., then you have the added recast timer as well as waiting on the stamina to recharge. In a game where you need to have reliable healing this is a major programming flaw, you double tax the casters in this way. It becomes more than just a player timing issue then.

Don't get me wrong though, its not like I hate the idea of the previous combat system...but it was definitely NOT geared towards a MMORPG.

[darkstarpoet1]

Actually darkstarpoet one of the problems with the older system was you HAD to wait for your stamina to fill up before you could do anything it wasn't like it was @100% at the start, so you basically start a fight having to wait (ideally if you want to have the maximum potency of attack on a monster). Not to mention the double wait you had to have on spells, this isn't a player problem either; this was a stamina bar functionality problem. For example, Cast Cure, you had to have enough stamina to cast it, then you had to wait the additional time to actually cast it., then you have the added recast timer as well as waiting on the stamina to recharge. In a game where you need to have reliable healing this is a major programming flaw, you double tax the casters in this way. It becomes more than just a player timing issue then.

Don't get me wrong though, its not like I hate the idea of the previous combat system...but it was definitely NOT geared towards a MMORPG.

did it take 60 seconds for the stamina bar to fill up enough for one broadswing? no it took more like 2-3 seconds for a completely empty stamina gauge to refill. that's what i am getting at is just drop some of the cooldowns on the more frequently used skills.

why should you be able to do 6 tp skull sunders in the same amount of time you can do 1 broadswing? broadswing is a basic attack and should not take that long to recharge. i'm not saying the system overall couldn't be adjusted quite easily, but there are certain things that just do not add up properly. the basic attacks in general if they dropped them down to 10 seconds overall for each of them the speed of the fight would dramatically increase. the using mrd and having 30, 30, and 60 for it's 3 basic attacks and having 10 for a tp move is backwards.

i'm not asking for it to be completely taken out just more of a way those of us that enjoyed the old system more control over our abilities.

[Murugan]

did it take 60 seconds for the stamina bar to fill up enough for one broadswing? no it took more like 2-3 seconds for a completely empty stamina gauge to refill. that's what i am getting at is just drop some of the cooldowns on the more frequently used skills.

why should you be able to do 6 tp skull sunders in the same amount of time you can do 1 broadswing? broadswing is a basic attack and should not take that long to recharge. i'm not saying the system overall couldn't be adjusted quite easily, but there are certain things that just do not add up properly. the basic attacks in general if they dropped them down to 10 seconds overall for each of them the speed of the fight would dramatically increase. the using mrd and having 30, 30, and 60 for it's 3 basic attacks and having 10 for a tp move is backwards.

i'm not asking for it to be completely taken out just more of a way those of us that enjoyed the old system more control over our abilities.

"The previous system wasn't all about spamming basic attacks!!!"

"The new system would be fine if we could just spam basic attacks more!"

Yeah... you and the handful of others who preferred it were probably so good at the incredibly deep and complex previous system, and now all that "creativity" is just wasted. The fact is that there was no way you could use all the abilities you can now in one fight under the previous system due to the limitation of the stamina bar, it was impossible.

So the new system does allow you to use a wider variety of abilities more often. It is an indisputable fact brought to you by the magic of science.

[Physic]

"The previous system wasn't all about spamming basic attacks!!!"

"The new system would be fine if we could just spam basic attacks more!"

Yeah... you and the handful of others who preferred it were probably so good at the incredibly deep and complex previous system, and now all that "creativity" is just wasted. The fact is that there was no way you could use all the abilities you can now in one fight under the previous system due to the limitation of the stamina bar, it was impossible.

So the new system does allow you to use a wider variety of abilities more often. It is an indisputable fact brought to you by the magic of science.

I know you are a defender, you like the game and feel the need to protect it regardless. But really i dont see how you can say as a pugilist main that you have more control/strategy/options now. While removing stamina does allow you to use more non tp/cooldown skills in succession, there arent that many of those that are useful for a melee, who is actually the class that has to deal with AA most. Sure, maybe discerning eye is now almost free (other than the using any skill delay) but that additional option does not make up for my ability to have higher evasion at all times, or the ability to do less actions, and keep tp high with pummel, or the ability to do a massive amount of actions with flurry. Nor the relationship between when you can do flurry and when you cant.

the problem with your science is it discounts cool downs, the main skills you want to use that bring synergy to your class usually are usually just a few skills and for most melee the cool down wasnt large. Truth is im better off using in class skills for damage, or effect due to accuracy and damage checks, or due to increased cool downs. only a few utility skills make it through to real usefullness. In the current system you actually go looking for crappy placeholder skills to fill gaps.

for pugilist the biggest stamina saves that are better under this system for me, discerning eye taunt and blood bath. all the rest of my skills were pretty balanced for use. Oh i also need more tp moves to fill the time void, but before i wouldnt have needed them, because proper use of basic attacks on pugilist was generally better than cross class tp moves most times.


For gladiator, i think this patch gave them way more options, because they had a lot of high cost skills, for the others it lowered it.

Its not that i havent played and dont understand the new system, i actually got it just by looking at the patch notes, and when i played i saw it ingame. My main problem is its just not as deep of a system, Its not as entertaining and there is very little synergy.

before skills worked together for different builds;
light strike heavy strike pummel concussive blow jarring haymaker all worked well together. they provide a synergy in use that is better when you use all of them together. in this case all of these allow you to maintain a higher evasion and defense rate while assuring you almost always have tp to use reactionary skills, and are doing less actions so you allways are ready to counter.
heavy strike flurry raging strike bloodbath victimize (other tp dump weaponskills) a focus on all out attack, flurry can build huge tp, and you focus is on building big tp than charging up a huge attack that can help keep you alive.

see, the basic attack scheme we had before was a huge part of each style, in fact without the basic attacks each style doesnt work as well, and combine s well together. The high cost of victimize is primarily balanced by pugs ability to get a lot of tp fast, and the ability to stack a lot of buffs on one skill, without that, it would almost always be better to use 2 or 3 lesser weaponskills back to back.

Im not going to say you cant press as many buttons as before, The focus is now on throwing a lot of differnt skills on your bar, even if they dont actually help you that much. and simply pressing all of them as soon as the cooldowns are up. Whereas before you picked and used skills that had a synergy, and used them mostly when the time was right, and most beneficial to you, Now you basically watch cooldowns on everything and your goal is to press them everytime the CD is up. It just makes it boring, you arent making tactical descions any more, i can write a macro that can do everything for me and probably get just as much success even versus high level tough monsters.

before for easy stuff, a lot of people got by on spaming basic attacks, but that wasnt enough to beat monsters of a high tier 10 levels higher than you. Now i notice, its actually a lot harder to fight monsters in that range, because cures are nerfed, and my defense and evasion are lower, as well as the fact that i no longer have as much control over when to burst and when not to. But for monsters below a certain threshold, its faster, because your rushdown as far as tp/skills is faster. So what it feels like to me, is easy fights got easier, and harder fights became impossible. the entire system went from a more stategic or tactical battle, to a TP/skill rushdown rotation focus.

and for me thats more boring.