A summoners return.

[Romsca]

that's fair Aiiro. What I was conveying was that, (and we actually only have two types, dps/tank with heals being on sch) let's be a bit more creative with future pets. There is nothing wrong with having a support pet. The KEY point is that whatever a new pet brings to the table, it matches the dps and utility we lose by not using Ifrit/Garuda. Summoner has two methods of summoning now in FF14, Trancing and Egi's. We currently have two dps pets and a tanker. Going forward, SE can give us more dps though Trancing while opening up Egi's to more support roles

1. Garuda extends duration of dots, how about a pet that increases their potency to match the dps we would get from 5 more ticks of damage.
2. How about a pet that boosts group dps or skill/spell speed?
3. A pet that has unique utility like: examples taken from FF6.
Cait Sith, it caused confusion, in FF14 that could translate to an attack dealing a potion of the damage back to the attacks owner, or increase miss chance, several ways it could be worked.
Kirin, casts regen on party, maybe not hp regen but how about mp/tp, and small value so not to push out bards, and with short range.
Phantom, casts invisible or maybe change to screen, grants increased chance to dodging an attack.

There are many options for us. I do not want to be locked into what we have and use a glamour for vanity sake.

[RiceisNice]

....

The moment you end up giving supportive pets to summoners, it's going to create that pigeoning holing to which one is the most effective in a raid environment (much like what we're currently seeing). We have three egis but you only ever use one. Having six egis but only using one isn't any better.

Its sound on text, but an absolute nightmare to implement in a balance in actual practice, especially when you already have scholar's selene for that.

[Romsca]

The moment you end up giving supportive pets to summoners, it's going to create that pigeoning holing to which one is the most effective in a raid environment (much like what we're currently seeing). We have three egis but you only ever use one. Having six egis but only using one isn't any better.

Its sound on text, but an absolute nightmare to implement in a balance in actual practice, especially when you already have scholar's selene for that.

i was just throwing out SS on Ramuh as an example. I said whatever a pet brings, it should 1. match in value what we lose from not having out a dps pet 2. Not push another player's role to extinction and 3. Be equal to using any other pet.

As I said above, a pet that increases the potency of our dots to equal the dmg gained from 5 more ticks given by Garuda, useful in those fights where mobs just don't live for those extra 15 seconds. Or a pet that boosts the groups dps, or boosts the healers heals etc. be creative but restrain any ideas to fit the 3 points I made.

[RiceisNice]

...

If you're boosting dot potency, that pet would be infinitely better because of how much it synergies with DoTs+cooldowns, conserves mana. You'd also need something that can equate to 550 potency (if we're going off by your example) from other pets to be more in tone for that outside of scenarios where mobs die too fast (and even then, summoners are getting this addressed a bit anyway with tri-disaster and more burst options)

Boosting group dps? It's an utter nightmare to balance from a numbers standpoint, and you'll still fall into the realm of being useless, or being mandatory. Same with healer buffs.

"1. match in value what we lose from not having out a dps pet 2. Not push another player's role to extinction and 3. Be equal to using any other pet. "

In a perfect world it should be like this. But its so much easier said than done from a design/balance standpoint.

Only other MMO I've seen done this with pets is WoW's hunter, where the pets were seperated into three specs (ferocity for dps, tenacity for tank, cunning for PvP). Guess what was only used in raiding? While there are over 12 different species in ferocity (you'd have raptors, vipers, hounds, etc), they are all functionally the same (auto attack, a focus-dump attack), with them having access to one raid utility buff to fill in what the party is missing. This is more-or-less aesthetics at this point, or in my case, I was shoe-horned into always raiding with a wolf for the 5% crit buff.

[Romsca]

If you're boosting dot potency, that pet would be infinitely better because of how much it synergies with DoTs+cooldowns, conserves mana. You'd also need something that can equate to 550 potency (if we're going off by your example) from other pets to be more in tone for that outside of scenarios where mobs die too fast (and even then, summoners are getting this addressed a bit anyway with tri-disaster and more burst options)

Boosting group dps? It's an utter nightmare to balance from a numbers standpoint, and you'll still fall into the realm of being useless, or being mandatory. Same with healer buffs.


In a perfect world it should be like this. But its so much easier said than done from a design/balance standpoint.

Only other MMO I've seen done this with pets is WoW's hunter, where the pets were seperated into three specs (ferocity for dps, tenacity for tank, cunning for PvP). Guess what was only used in raiding? While there are over 12 different species in ferocity (you'd have raptors, vipers, hounds, etc), they are all functionally the same (auto attack, a focus-dump attack), with them having access to one raid utility buff to fill in what the party is missing. This is more-or-less aesthetics at this point, or in my case, I was shoe-horned into always raiding with a wolf for the 5% crit buff.

Good argument. I know balance is always tough. If SE said, "we'll give you a pet that has a skill to boost group dps" I would scream to start the value very very low and work it upwards until it met the criteria of equaling the direct player dps lost by not using a dps pet.

As for dot potency vs dot duration, in a short trash mob fight, dot potency, in long boss fights, dot duration. They both are balance to equal the same dps, just one is for short fights and the other for long fights.

[AiiroOkami]

Think about it, if we have a Pet, Ramuh-Egi for example that regen MP and TP while doing a good amount of damages.
Why would you want a BRD or a MCH in your party ? They will become useless since the SMN will have more DPS and the same utility, that's not balanced at all.
If we get a HP regen pet, we are gonna be SCH wannabe, I don't want that and that doesn't make sense, There is no primals that heal something.

For the Egi that will buff allies, it would be the best pet and every SMN will use it and all the other egis will be left out.

You have to think about other jobs and synergy within a party, that's what a MMO is.

[Romsca]

Think about it, if we have a Pet, Ramuh-Egi for example that regen MP and TP while doing a good amount of damages.
Why would you want a BRD or a MCH in your party ? They will become useless since the SMN will have more DPS and the same utility, that's not balanced at all.
If we get a HP regen pet, we are gonna be SCH wannabe, I don't want that and that doesn't make sense, There is no primals that heal something.
For the Egi that will buff allies, it would be the best pet and every SMN will use it and all the other egis will be left out.

You have to think about other jobs and synergy within a party, that's what a MMO is.

There are no primals currently in FF14 that heal, but there have been summons in past FF's that heal. And I didn't suggest a heal pet for summoner, I said maybe a mp/tp regen with a small value or buff radius, or a pet with a skill that boosts healers heals. And yes, current pets have a basic attack on 3 second cool down, but where does it say every pet has to have one?

Aiiro, if I used a pet that gave a regen buff, he'll even a hp one, I am not using Garuda or Ifrit which means I am losing that source of dps from A. Garudas Contagion or B. Ifrits auto attacks. That is a decent dps loss, summoner will not be on par with other dps classes.