Warrior in Heavensward. A bit nervous about the Overlap with Dark Knights

[wonka11]

Don't get me wrong, Dark Knight seems super legit.

However, I am worried about our overlap with them. They may do damage through spells, but ultimately, if they're a damage tank like we are, while also having healing through drains, etc, then where do we fall into as our place in a raid?

Of course I'm all for equality among the tanks, all tanks should be viable to be off or main, however, its nice to be specialized in some situation, as well as to have your own unique form of play that one tank doesn't feel homogenized with another.

Any thoughts on this?

[Paikis]

I think that a good tank is more than just his class. I would rather have a good Warrior than a mediocre Dark Knight. As long as all the tank classes can do the job, you should always pick the best players rather than the best class.

[Xenosan]

Storm's Path

Soul Eater is the DRK mitigation combo, but it's a self heal and not a debuff. It won't have the utility of a Warrior OT applying Attack Down on the boss

That comes to mind

[Kibafool]

So far the top 4 things that come to mind that WAR will keep over DRK and PLD is as follows.

1. Storm's Path
-10% Damage Reduction
2. Storm's Eye
-10% Slash Resistance down that only NIN can apply.
3. Inner Beast
-20% Damage reduction almost on demand coupled with a strong attack and HP regen.
4. Steel Cyclone
-Really good AoE threat generator that costs no TP while PLD just has Flash and DRK's will cost MP.


WAR will still be the meat sponge tank that is only getting their DPS increased with the new DPS stance coupled with attacks, a fairly decent mitigation cool down and a strong self heal. If you don't have a NIN in the party, their slashing debuff will be important since I doubt DRK will be able to apply it.The damage reduction on Storm's Path is also pretty good too but might depend on what debuff they decide to give DRK on their third combo string. We also have to consider that the DPS output of all three tanks might be leveled out while in tank stance since PLD is getting a couple new attacks as well. Personally I feel that in terms of DPS while MTing it'll be WAR > DRK > PLD. It currently seems that DRK has to blow their MP pretty quickly to do more damage which will weaken them more then a WAR blowing their Wrath stacks to do Inner Beast for damage or Unchained.

[Alacran]

Honestly I can't wait to see how they play off one another. My brother mains a Warrior, I have been waiting for DRK since 1.0 beta, the way each of their skill will be able to be used in conjunction in a party really has me excited im sure the development team is working hard to make sure one wont make the other obsolete.

[Casper]

For what we know so far, Drk will have a "weakening" combo, which will most likely be something on par with storm path and rage of halone debuffs, so i wouldn't worry too much about that for Drk.

That being said, it's quite unlikely you have the slashing debuff on Drk, as said, so unless you have a nin, going Pld/Drk will mean getting 10% lower dps on both your tanks. That in itself is not negligible.

Warrior also is quite peculiar in that it has a lot of CD that can be used very often, but for lower periods of time than Pld. This make it quite suited for some situation as MT, and for off tanking (having to take on adds once in a while and going HaM the rest of the time).

From what we can see right now, Drk seems to be kind of like a middle ground, like astro, and will be able to fit the role of both a MT or an OT competently, most likely, so that War / Pld combo will work (always have been , no reason for it to change), but War / Drk with Drk MT (or war MT when the fight is fitting), and Pld / Drk with Drk off tank (most likely)) should be viable too.

Edit: that being said i am pretty sure that 1) They will not have made Drk obsolete from the start, and it will be desirable for some stuff -- its the new shiny after all but 2) both Pld and War will still be desirable in their own right, and none will be made obsolete by Drk. Pld will still be king on the defensive CD part -- no way DRK is getting anywhere near that level, and PLD even get new awesome tool to help the party. If you want a tank that support and protect the party and focus on making things easier for everyone, PLD will remain the best option. Between their new shield option, cover, their new heal option, stoneskin, and the best lasting mitigation in the game, it's hard to see it being made less desirable, and they even get new options to increase their dps to ensure they don't get obliterated by the two other jobs on this part (which would be the only way they get pushed out of the meta).

On the other side, war is getting a new dps stance, which means they will be even MORE efficient at off tanking and picking up adds. Now they don't have to lose their stacks, and they will even be able to dump them for moar dps. They also get quite a potent new CD with their parry skill. Still bring storm path in a pinch, the slashing debuff, as said, which is quite important. Once again, i do'nt see them being made undesirable.

I can totally see Drk being as desirable too... Which means you will pick 2 nad lose something in all case, so it will be a matter of choice.

[Gildarts]

^ i doubt the DRK debuff combo will be same as path, that would make job too strong in defense side with stance same as PLD and that combo>.>

[Casper]

^ i doubt the DRK debuff combo will be same as path, that would make job too strong in defense side with stance same as PLD and that combo>.>

What are you talking about ? War has path and a stance similar to PLD, yet is far from broken on defense xD

[Donjo]

What are you talking about ? War has path and a stance similar to PLD, yet is far from broken on defense xD

Um... yeah. Shield Oath and Defiance are nearly equal. -20% damage taken is equivalent to having +25% additional health and +25% healing received. Defiance gives that 25% health but only 20% healing received(self heals are supposed to cover the last 5%, ostensibly). Their ability to mitigate attacks with their tank stance alone is just fine. Dark Knight will have a -20% damage taken stance, but that doesn't automatically make them the One True MT(tm). It just means that SE didn't want to create another meat shield tank, which is all fine and dandy because people generally don't understand that HP in and of itself is a part of mitigation and then get scared of big red numbers. It may be worth noting though that Dark Knight's possession of health drain combined with the fact that their tanking stance isn't designed to take advantage of it could mean that their ability to self heal may not be as strong as Warrior.

As for the greater topic at hand, I too am afraid that Paladin will get pushed out of the meta. I can already imagine what initial progression groups are going to do: walk in with a Paladin day one with the express goal of getting rid of it the very nanosecond their mitigation is found to not be necessary. Wave 2 will have already gotten rid of Paladin because the guys before them did, and then it'll trickle all the way down until 3.0 Paladin becomes 2.0 Warrior. As Casper alluded to earlier, this can be remedied by having the damage potential of all three Tanks be relatively equal. It could in turn create a neat dynamic where a party will choose Tanks not for their DPS but for which of their utilities are most useful for a particular fight. That's something I would be on board with

[Casper]

Snip

Remember that Pld is getting access to a new third part for RoH combo that apply a strong dot, and a damage boosting buff as third part of riot blade (probably akin to maim for warrior). Those will increase their dps both in MT and OT positions. Meanwhile, War is getting a dps stance, increasing their dps while off tanking, but doing little to nothing for their dps as MT. The end result will be that Pld is going to do comparatively more damage than currently as MT, while staying on par with war as OT (as they already are). Given their defensive capabilities, and given war toolkit adapted to off tank a lot, it will make sense that they would keep their respective job, but it is much less likely that pld will get pushed out of of the meta based solely on dps as MT -- it is an issue that is adressed by the additions as we know them. I do not think Pld will do as much dps as drk or war as MT, but i do not think either drk or war will bring as much utility to the table as pld now that pld gets both an aoe shield option, and a new heal for party memebrs + themselves, and i think dps wise it will be much closer than it currently is. It looks like something similar to astro, who has already being described as the lowest dps of the 3 healers, but granting instead additional utility to the party.