Bard or Machinists

[Sleigh]

You cannot use the DPS provided by other classes when determining which class between Bard and Machinist will provide more DPS to the raid group. Yes, Bard's Foe's Requiem is a huge benefit to a raid group, but in terms of raw DPS output, the Machinist will be providing more raw DPS because the Bard suffers innate DPS loss when channeling Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon, and Mage's Ballad tends to see more use than either Foe's Requiem or Army's Paeon in most cases due to groups needing it to keep their White Mage's operating. From what we can tell the MP and TP regeneration of the Machinist does not reduce the overall DPS output of that class.

From Famitsu:

"The turrets can be summoned by the Autoturret techniques (Autoturret Rook and Autoturret Bishop). Since the turrets cannot move, the basic idea is to leave them out on the field during battle (they can be removed by the Turret Recovery action). There are also actions to enhance the turret itself and to switch the mode of the installed turret. Autoturret Rook attacks a single enemy, while the Autoturret Bishop, in addition to performing automatic AoE attacks, can change mode to grant support effects of MP or TP recovery to nearby party members."

From what we've heard, the MCH's version of Paeon is slower than BRD's, and it can only come from the AoE turret which is logically weaker ST than the ordinary turret, with probably more detriments when regening TP (if it does damage at all at that point). We'll have to see and test that aspect of BRD vs MCH but I'd imagine that aspect of their support is close to each other. For BRD vs MCH, BRD has to provide more overall raid DPS IMO unless they change BRD's current tool set, or they will be imbalanced due to MCH's damage down skills, much like how DRG/NIN must (and do) provide more raid DPS than a MNK does.

[Tharian]

I think we are miss-communicating here. When you are referring to "raid DPS" are you referring to the total combined DPS of the entire raid group/alliance or the individual Bard/Machinist? Because if it is the former then that is a horrible way to judge which of the two classes is a superior DPS class.

[Sleigh]

I think we are miss-communicating here. When you are referring to "raid DPS" are you referring to the total combined DPS of the entire raid group/alliance or the individual Bard/Machinist? Because if it is the former then that is a horrible way to judge which of the two classes is a superior DPS class.

Okay please enlighten me as to why you think this. I've seen people say this before because they haven't actually thought about it, or actually raided in an environment where comps matter and why they matter, but I'd love to see why you think this.

[lordoftheapes79]

your source if you please...

Think it was said at nikoniko or whatever, but he's right.

[Tharian]

Think it was said at nikoniko or whatever, but he's right.

I would still prefer an actual source rather than a "but he's right."

Either way it would still probably be a good idea to level as many classes as possible as high as possible, Dragoon especially considering the emphasis that the X-pac appears to be placing on the class.

[Seku]

No one can answer your question because Machinist isn't out yet and no one has played them extensively enough to give a professional opinion about them yet.

With that out the way...it doesn't matter what you play. Since you're playing a DPS role it doesn't matter what you are as long as you can do good damage, dodge, and follow mechanics. Doing all of this will make it easier for your whm g/f, since she doesn't have to heal you or others as often.

Bard could help with ballad, but you shouldn't be using that in almost any situation as it's a big DPS hit. If you want to be a support to your g/f though, I'd go summoner. Super Virus and enhanced Eye 4 eye would at least help the tank take less damage and if for w/e reason she starts running out of mp, you can take over cures to a extent to buy time for her to regenerate MP as well as use resurrection if someone dies while your DoT's and pet keep pushing out a good portion of your damage, saving her from having to do it and allowing her to continue to focus on the rest of the party.

If you just want to play one of those two, well first comment still stands until heavensward is out for some time to see where Machinist stands in the grand scheme of things along with every other job since things are changing up

[PinnyAerani]

As a bard or machinist your primary role is DPS, so don't let the ability to restore MP/TP fool you into thinking that's their primary job. It IS a very important part of playing the class and if you do choose to be a bard don't be like others and never use ballad/peon because it hurts your DPS. Just from what we've been shown of machinist so far, they seem like a more "fire and forget" version of the bard: they drop their turrets down on a spot and let it do its thing while you continue to DPS. Meanwhile, Bard sacrifices their own damage to bring that utility to the party.

It's really up to you if you want the stronger MP/TP regens at the cost of lower damage when they're active vs. weaker MP/TP regens for a more consistent damage flow

[Zophar]

It's really up to you if you want the stronger MP/TP regens at the cost of lower damage when they're active vs. weaker MP/TP regens for a more consistent damage flow

Technically, the mcn does lose dps. when their turrets are in support mode, they stop all dps. At this point, we do not have the information needed to know how big of a dps loss this is, but if things are balanced, mcn will have a slightly lower damage output than brd, which will make up for the added damage the turret provides. Just for the sake of argument, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the turret does about 20% of mcn's total damage, that would about be the same effect as the damage debuff while singing.

So, regardless of how you look at it, one additional set will lose you either mitigation or threat, because of the opportunity cost of doing a second maim inside of the maim buff window. You can make the case that you don't need the threat, but the cost is there.

It may seem that way, but honestly, the extra 30% raw damage (20% from maim and 10% from eye) actually fairly well balances out the loss of a butcher block round. And if you can hold hate fine while keeping eye or path up, there is no actual loss. If you can't keep hate and maintain your chosen storm move, you are seriously undergeared. That is not a debate. that is a fact.

[Sidra]

As a bard or machinist your primary role is DPS, so don't let the ability to restore MP/TP fool you into thinking that's their primary job. It IS a very important part of playing the class and if you do choose to be a bard don't be like others and never use ballad/peon because it hurts your DPS. Just from what we've been shown of machinist so far, they seem like a more "fire and forget" version of the bard: they drop their turrets down on a spot and let it do its thing while you continue to DPS. Meanwhile, Bard sacrifices their own damage to bring that utility to the party.

It's really up to you if you want the stronger MP/TP regens at the cost of lower damage when they're active vs. weaker MP/TP regens for a more consistent damage flow

But if the turrent wasn't giving tp or mp, it would be dpsing. It's exact same concept - the machnist will give up some of their potential dps to do their support.

You are correct - though. I think it's mistake to view Bard as a support class, it's a DPS class at it's core. Just happens to have a buffs that are often needed in progression content.

[Ephier]

As a bard or machinist your primary role is DPS, so don't let the ability to restore MP/TP fool you into thinking that's their primary job. It IS a very important part of playing the class and if you do choose to be a bard don't be like others and never use ballad/peon because it hurts your DPS.

Not sure I can agree with that. While You are primarily doing DPS, BRD is only brought along in party for one thing, songs. If BRD's did not have songs why would I not just pick up another caster or melee who does more damage than them? People need to stop looking at the word support as some sort of insult. BRD is a support DPS class and does a great job at it.

It's really up to you if you want the stronger MP/TP regens at the cost of lower damage when they're active vs. weaker MP/TP regens for a more consistent damage flow

No one knows their current damage potential so how can you say that?