Shortage of tanks a myth - thoughts?

[KisaiTenshi]

Do I think that dungeons should be speed pulled as long as everyone's geared for it? Sure. I'm always up for a good speed run no matter what role I'm in. Enough people are uncomfortable with it for various reasons that it's just not gonna happen, though.

Speedpulling is part of the reason people get rightfully upset, because the tank never ask the healers what they can handle, nor do they look at what DPS configuration they have. Two Melee's, forget speedpulling (they will get creamed by the mobs AOE's, regardless of gear.) Two BLM's, Speedpull as much as possible if they are overgeared for the dungeon. BRD and SMN? Probably not going to happen.

I've said it before, any appropriately geared player can handle "two closest pulls" without worrying about a wipe. One pull is for when you are just barely above the minimum level/ilevel. Speedpulls are something the developers likely never intended (and still can't be done well with some dungeons,) but came about through emergent gameplay. The developers threw more road cones into other instances to prevent speedpulling.

[Canadane]

I speedrun with 2x melee all the time though.
You rocking some Dreadwyrm weapons? I expect you know your way around a hotbar and that's good enough for me.

[Kaethra]

There is nothing wrong with the roles. You either end up with V1.0 style "dynamic class changing in battle" or you end up with Mabinogi-style "I have all the skillz and am a master at none" if you don't lock the roles. The problem is a lack of enforcement of the roles when the powercreep from the gear diminishes the roles for the tank and healer. That makes everyone try to faceroll through the content without paying attention to the game mechanics.

You misunderstood what I said. I said when classes are FORCED into a role and cannot do anything else.

If you have no Warrior or Paladin, even in 4 man content (for your current gear level) can you make due without one? Heck in the duty finder you can't even get one to pop without one of those two classes in the queue. You can preform a group without a tank, but how far is that going to get? That's what I am talking about.

I'm not suggesting to give Dragoons or whatever class a stance to make them equal tanks as Warriors and Pallies, but in a pinch, especially for the small group content. It shouldn't be too farfetched. Course this is VERY hard to balance around the 4 man group.

Everquest uses the 6 man group system and you can get by without a tank class. Heck with enough hybrids you can get by with out tanks or healers. And its a good proof of a game that doesn't force people into singular roles. In fact your role is unknown until you see what else is in the group.

If you play a Paladin, you will probably tank. But sometimes you're tank and off healer. You might even be pushed into a main healer role (they heal as well as Druids and Shaman), lacking a cleric. You might even play off dps (dps that isn't as great as true dps) and provide buffs as needed (maybe have a shaman healer, and need HP/AC buffs).

If you play a Paladin in FF, you tank. You might main tank or off tank. But that's it.

In the above example, the paladin is not uber skill allz class.

But we're not talking about something that can be changed here. We've 4 spots. We can't alter that. So yes, we're stuck with DPS x 2, Healer, and Tank, and we just have to deal with the fact that there will be a tank shortage leveling up and a tank surplus as the top.

[vp_cmc]

You can preform a group without a tank, but how far is that going to get? That's what I am talking about.

According to this, group of 4 wars can get pretty far.

[Ultimatecalibur]

One thing to consider is that right now a large percentage of active players have leveled every available class to 50 and are geared to at the least i100 on all combat classes. Even those they don't use often. This means that players who play tanks primarily, secondarily and even tertiarily are available to tank content. This gives us an apparent surplus of tanks.

Once Heavensward hits on Friday morning we should start seeing the primary tank population separate itself from the secondary and tertiary tank population for a few months.

[Noshpan]

Speedpulling is part of the reason people get rightfully upset, because the tank never ask the healers what they can handle, nor do they look at what DPS configuration they have. Two Melee's, forget speedpulling (they will get creamed by the mobs AOE's, regardless of gear.) Two BLM's, Speedpull as much as possible if they are overgeared for the dungeon. BRD and SMN? Probably not going to happen.

I once queued for Expert Roulette as DRG. Get in and the other DPS is a MNK. After the first massive AOE pull, I guess is when the tank noticed group composition. He made a humorous comment and adjusted pace for the group's make-up.

If you have no Warrior or Paladin, even in 4 man content (for your current gear level) can you make due without one?

I'm not suggesting to give Dragoons or whatever class a stance to make them equal tanks as Warriors and Pallies, but in a pinch, especially for the small group content. It shouldn't be too farfetched. Course this is VERY hard to balance around the 4 man group.

When I was leveling SMN, I once tanked a Copperbell with my topaz carbuncle (because the tank was awful, & though we suggested that they use their threat-generating abilities, they refused... they also kept killing the bomb which was used to break up the second boss).

[starLivitation]

Persnally, i would say pld and sch are my main. i finished relic for both. i do play others but those are my fav. but for sure if i go DF i never need to use Tank unless i am helping someone in FC for their expert , or if i go raid.
the only time i ever felt the need to do on PLD in DF alone , was when i was doing Atma or when i was leveling. going on SCH in a dungen is a much more relaxing experience for me, as i dont have to worry about agro or other dps pulling stuff before i get to flash them etc.

i did do a little brayfox farm back in the day for alexandrite, but only in those 4:30 2 boss parties with some friends or farming linkshell.

[Rhas]

Unfortunately many people I know who play tank and healer roles have become so discouraged that they avoid multi-player content except with good friends, or simply Play DPS or just craft. That is because of the stress of playing the tank (and healer) role. Too many times they have been blamed berated or abused, and too many times forced into an unwanted speed run, or summarily kicked for not speed running. The blame game is probably the chief culprit.

Yeah I *used* to play tank as well. While I may not have tanked a lot on this character, I have tanked more than enough to know that unless I actually know the people I go in with, it's just not going to happen. I am at some point going to level up both the tank jobs further because now they have tied them to DRK when they originally said they wouldn't, but that's neither here nor there.

I have had absolutely horrendous experiences with tanking on my "other" characters to know that when I eventually do take them up just for the skills, it will probably be solo in leves/guilhests and fates. Unless I can get people I actually know and/or trust to have a good time regardless of circumstances in the dungeons go along with

[myahele]

This is my main and I have all jobs leveled up. While I don't main as a tank, I know enough.

So when I made an alt, I decided to make a tank ... and boy is it frustrating having to fight aggro due to gear. I don't have enough gil to keep current on gear nor do I have the patience to do the side quests to gear.

I can only imagine what a new player must go through

[Ashkendor]

Speedpulling is part of the reason people get rightfully upset, because the tank never ask the healers what they can handle, nor do they look at what DPS configuration they have. Two Melee's, forget speedpulling (they will get creamed by the mobs AOE's, regardless of gear.) Two BLM's, Speedpull as much as possible if they are overgeared for the dungeon. BRD and SMN? Probably not going to happen.

I've said it before, any appropriately geared player can handle "two closest pulls" without worrying about a wipe. One pull is for when you are just barely above the minimum level/ilevel. Speedpulls are something the developers likely never intended (and still can't be done well with some dungeons,) but came about through emergent gameplay. The developers threw more road cones into other instances to prevent speedpulling.

People vastly underestimate the capabilities of a lot of classes. I've done speed pulls in every role with pretty much every possible party configuration including the "sub-optimal" ones like two melee or SMN/melee. If you're well geared and you actually know your way around your class skills, there's no reason not to. Do I go into Duty Finder expecting that everyone will be able to do that? Absolutely not. DF is a mixed bag and I can't expect everyone to be skilled and geared. It's something reserved for running in a premade or if I happen to get a good DF group. I check gear and comfort levels before I pull instead of just running off half-cocked and getting myself killed. That's just a pointless waste of everyone's time.

Speed pulling has been around as long as there's been games with mobs that you can drag into other mobs. It's not unique to FFXIV in any way shape or form, and it's something that the developers would have had to account for.

As an aside, the only time you're going to "get creamed" on a melee is if you're being lazy and not dodging those pretty orange floor markers. It's quite possible to dodge the floor markers and still get in damage. If you DO happen to get hit, use Second Wind. Even if the healer is already on top of curing you, they will appreciate the fact that you tried to help yourself.

Dunno. I feel for new tanks in Duty Finder. I've been there before. When I get one and I'm on heals, I do my best to keep them standing and back them up if DPS are being assholes about the speed of the run or the size of the pulls. I've gone as far as to put my fairy away to put a stop to facepulling DPS. When I get one and I'm on DPS, I do my best to not rip hate off them, and I make sure they know it's not their fault if I do end up tanking a few things. I do queue as tank a good portion of the time, and even rolling around in Dreadwyrm with a full set of melded accessories, I still run into a few people that treat me like utter crap. Thankfully, they're vastly outnumbered by the people that are just happy to finally see their queue pop.