Colour Me Blue - Blue Mage

[Tharian]

You specifically stated that Astrologian has never appeared before in ANY final fantasy game. You quantified it differently than I did my own statement. By stating that it had never appeared in ANY Final Fantasy game you permitted me to use the spin off games to prove you wrong. Even though I do not consider the spin off games part of the main series, that doesn't change the fact that they are STILL Final Fantasy Games and as such part of the Franchise. To make matters even more poignant, Final Fantasy Tactics takes place in the world of Ivalice, Ivalice is the same world that Final Fantasy XII takes place in. So technically speaking, Final Fantasy XII is a direct sequel to the Final Fantasy Tactics series, thus making Final Fantasy Tactics indirectly a part of the main series, despite being a spin-off.

It should be interesting to note that Final Fantasy Tactics (at least the first rendition) also has a Blue Mage in it.

I did not ask for the reason you would LIKE to see Blue in the game. I asked why you thought the game needed Blue in it. This means I want to know what you feel that adding Blue Mage to the game would actually add to the gaming experience that isn't already provided by one of the pre-existing classes. I am also curious which monster abilities specifically you think would make good Blue Magic spells... the only things I can think of are the various Area of Effect Attacks of several different non-Beastman or non-Human enemies (as the Beastman and Humans by and large use the same abilities and attacks as the currently existing classes).

I wasn't trying to break out the "I have better knowledge of FF History" card per se; its just that I have seen this topic come up several times over the years between this game and Final Fantasy XI (it only stopping in the latter's case when the class actually got added to the game), and I am getting ruddy tired of people insisting that this class "just needs to be added" with no real legitimate reasoning for why they feel that way.

[SoloWingMetatron]

You specifically stated that Astrologian has never appeared before in ANY final fantasy game. You quantified it differently than I did my own statement. By stating that it had never appeared in ANY Final Fantasy game you permitted me to use the spin off games to prove you wrong.

See that right there is entirely my point....you are arguing with me for the only purpose of "proving me wrong" over something as trivial as FF history by your own admission....you are right I cited Astrologian as a unique job, and you stated that perhaps it already existed in Tactics. That's fair enough, I'm not disputing that. But you know damn well that the reason I cited Astrologian as an example was to show that jobs have been implemented into FFXIV that have barely featured in the franchise.....whether it existed previously in Tactics or not is meaningless. I didn't realize a job with a similar name existed in Tactics...thanks for the heads up but so what? that does not negate the point of the example in any way shape or form, so why bring it up? and then be petty about trying to prove me wrong on that front...it's just trivial, petty, irrelevant and toxic.

Personally I have never seen another BLU thread on the DPS forum and as I said I thought it might be fun to discuss the possibility of it one day showing up. But as I said it is a fleeting fancy as there is no evidence to suggest it will be implemented any time soon if at all. But never say never. At any rate if you are sick of people "insisting" the class be implemented (I was not insisting on anything though) then I suggest you don't comment on said topics.....Just coz you don't want to talk about BLU, doesn't give you the right to just start attempting to shoot other people down and ruining a topic, just because you are "ruddy tired" of a job that has barely featured in this DPS forum. I find that very snide and selfish.

In regards to how BLU could be implemented game play wise there have been a number of suggestions in the previous comments for you to read and build off of, or to offer constructive comments on. Also as I stated in my original post.....I was interested in hearing how other people thought it could be implemented....that is your cue to offer up a legitimate reason as to how BLU could or could not be implemented, allowing me to then have a proper conversation with you as to why I would agree or disagree.....but instead YOU chose to focus on irrelevant FF history, and then to try and "prove me wrong" on said history, even though it has no bearing on the topic you claimed to want to know about....

All this proves is that you would rather argue for the sake of arguing, than actually offer anything constructive to the thread, which you have yet to do....

[Tharian]

Wow... dude... just to enlighten you... this is a forum. A forum is named after the Latin Word meaning "Public Place Outdoors" these Fora (plural of Forum) were used for several different purposes, the most common and standard was to serve as a marketplace, but that is not what they are most well known for. The Roman Forum is most well known as the location where Politicians and Philosophers gathered to hold their famous debates and discussions.

It is thus entirely appropriate for me to want to debate a topic on an Internet Forum, because that is the entire reason Internet Fora (and indeed ALL Fora) exist in the first place!

That said, I am not sick of people insisting it be implemented... I am sick of people insisting it be implemented without giving a valid REASON for it to be implemented. These are two completely different things. If an individual can provide a reason for the class to be added, then I have absolutely no problem with that. If they simply say that the class should be added and leave it at that, then yes, I have a problem.

As for my own view... honestly, I don't see a way that Blue could be realistically implemented in this game given the way that the game was designed. There are a number of reasons for this. First off, someone suggested fairly early on that the Job Quests could be used to learn abilities from monsters... the problem with that is this would leave the Blue Mage with exactly 11 abilities to it's name by level 50; that is not even remotely close to the amount of abilities that Black Mage has at that point (22 all told). And that is just nixing one of the proposed idea's, I could go through and explain why each and every one of them wouldn't really work, but I really have better things to do than that.

[SoloWingMetatron]

If they simply say that the class should be added and leave it at that, then yes, I have a problem.

As for my own view... honestly, I don't see a way that Blue could be realistically implemented in this game given the way that the game was designed. There are a number of reasons for this. First off, someone suggested fairly early on that the Job Quests could be used to learn abilities from monsters.

But I DO NOT fall into that category as I have offered and built off a number of suggestions on this thread. One of them being that very Job Quest example you are citing.....so why did you not offer the critique you did just then in the first place, instead of trying to argue with me and prove me wrong over nothing? Unless of course you didn't bother reading the rest of the thread and therefore didn't see the suggestions I GAVE.....like quests similar to SMN's Austerities Trials, or that maybe Blue Magic could work similar to Mudra. Or even how it could work from a lore point of view in regards to Ala Mhigo....There was even a discussion on this very thread how BLU could work as a Tank or Healer, if not as a DPS.....You could have constructively commented on any of these suggestions that I either gave or built off of...but no and that's no ones fault but your own.

You then chose to take this approach:

Wow... dude... just to enlighten you... this is a forum. A forum is named after the Latin Word meaning "Public Place Outdoors" these Fora (plural of Forum)

An extremely patronizing, condescending and petty remark. Shame on you....

[Tharian]

An extremely patronizing, condescending and petty remark. Shame on you....

I only responded like that because you were already being extremely patronizing and condescending towards me to begin with. I was trying to be completely respectful with my responses and provide rational responses. You were the one who started arguing in an emotional manner. Calling my side of the argument petty, irrelevant and toxic... that is every bit as patronizing, and condescending as what I just said. In fact your comments qualified as an Ad Hominem attack. While my response to those comments was borderline Ad Hominem, because you used it first you are the one guilty of committing the logical fallacy, not me.

And for reference, an Ad Hominem is when you attack the person or the emotions of the person instead of debating the topic of the argument. It includes calling the person insulting names, or assigning insulting names to the argument. I don't know where you are from, but Dude is not generally considered an insulting name by most people where I live, and explaining the history of the word Forum is most certainly not insulting... patronizing yes... insulting no.

[SoloWingMetatron]

No all I did was use negative adjectives to remark on this very petty and toxic argument....It was you who tried to appear of intellectual superiority and therefore patronizing by your previous remark....

Also you have still failed to explain why you did not simply offer your critique on my original suggestions, of which you seem to have been unaware. All this argument has been so far is you trying to prove me wrong, again over something petty and again not offer anything of worth. All you are trying to do is shift the blame on me. When in actual fact my reply to your initial message was simply that how often BLU featured in FF history is irrelevant to the topic....which it is. So that's just a statement of fact. I was merely trying to bring your attention to the fact so you could then offer some worthy critique. But instead you chose to be stubborn and try to "prove me wrong" on said FF history....so I fail to see how I started this, when it was you who interjected with the FF history lesson of pointlessness...

Granted I should have refrained from using negatively charged words like toxic and petty, but that is exactly what this has become. To the point where this topic is dead now anyways.

[Tharian]

OMG, if this is a petty and toxic argument then what does that make the United States Presidential Debates which are about one million times worse than this?

As for why I did not offer the critiques in the first place... simply put, I was more curious about why this thread was even opened in the first place than in commenting on the idea's people were throwing around. You joined the forum less than 5 months ago... I have been playing Final Fantasy MMORPG's since 2004 and been on this and other Final Fantasy MMORPG Forums for about that long. In that time I have seen at least 20 different threads asking for the addition of the Blue Mage to either Final Fantasy XI or Final Fantasy XIV, not all of which were in this specific subforum, but at least one major one was. The one thing they almost all had in common was that the posts in those threads usually boiled down to people saying "Blue Mage is cool, you should so totally add it to this game!" without offering any legitimate reason why the Developers really should follow through on that suggestion.

All I wanted to see is if someone could offer me a legitimate reason. I still haven't seen one outside of the purely emotional reasons.

[SoloWingMetatron]

OMG, if this is a petty and toxic argument then what does that make the presidential debates?

Lol those too are toxic and petty, doesn't change the fact that this has become petty though. When if you look at my original response to you all I meant was to illustrate a point that the FF history lesson didn't matter...nothing more. It was not my intention to come off as confrontational. But when you then continued to try and prove me wrong on FF history instead of adding to the thread constructively It did become tiresome, since you did not give any reason as to why BLU couldn't be implemented.

[Tharian]

Lol those too are toxic and petty, doesn't change the fact that this has become petty though. When if you look at my original response to you all I meant was to illustrate a point that the FF history lesson didn't matter...nothing more. It was not my intention to come off as confrontational. But when you then continued to try and prove me wrong on FF history instead of adding to the thread constructively It did become tiresome, since you did not give any reason as to why BLU couldn't be implemented.

It was never my intent to say that Blue Mage COULDN'T be implemented. It was my intent to ask WHY IT SHOULD be implemented.

When adding a class to a game the Developers need to answer more questions than whether or not they can add it. They also need to answer whether adding the class will unbalance the game, and also whether adding it makes sense from a lore perspective. Additionally they need to decide whether the class will actually add something to the game as it currently stands or not. There is a lot that goes into deciding to add a class to the game. I am asking if anyone has actually put any thought into considering even some of these questions.

[SoloWingMetatron]

As for why I did not offer the critiques in the first place... simply put, I was more curious about why this thread was even opened in the first place than in commenting on the idea's people were throwing around. You joined the forum less than 5 months ago... I have been playing Final Fantasy MMORPG's since 2004 and been on this and other Final Fantasy MMORPG Forums for about that long. In that time I have seen at least 20 different threads asking for the addition of the Blue Mage to either Final Fantasy XI or Final Fantasy XIV, not all of which were in this specific subforum, but at least one major one was. The one thing they almost all had in common was that the posts in those threads usually boiled down to people saying "Blue Mage is cool, you should so totally add it to this game!" without offering any legitimate reason why the Developers really should follow through on that suggestion.

All I wanted to see is if someone could offer me a legitimate reason. I still haven't seen one outside of the purely emotional reasons.

That's fair enough but you can't blame me for all those other threads that exist on completely different forums/websites....I'm not psychic you know! As far as I knew this topic is the first one to exist on here for some time now at least and was just interested in hearing peoples ideas on BLU, as well as offering some of my own. Which as you can see I did. So my suggestions were not based purely on emotional reasons or a love of the job, which you would have known had you actually read all the comments here, instead of arguing with me.