Mass pulls: don't do this.

[Gorlioliolio]

It's absolutely no effort to Tomahawk/Flash mobs as you pass. If you don't do that, you're lazy. It lets healers heal/Stoneskin you as you pull, and that's useful because some mobs are faster than you, or are ranged, or you just can't avoid running through them.

Sprinting makes it so healers don't need to heal/stoneskin you mid pull, as does corner cutting while lobbing one mob. Just because you take a ton of damage and require heals mid pulls doesn't mean we are all that bad.

[Launched]

Sprinting makes it so healers don't need to heal/stoneskin you mid pull, as does corner cutting while lobbing one mob. Just because you take a ton of damage and require heals mid pulls doesn't mean we are all that bad.

Just because you play PLD with no damage for aoe pulls doesn't mean we all do.

[Izsha]

When you say "bad habit" or "crutch" I am so confused by what you actually mean in this situation, no offense, because tanking's not hard, you just do what your gear allows.

I say crutch because there is no disadvantage to pulling and hitting buttons as you run. Just because it 'can' be done face pulling doesn't make it in anyway better, or more efficient. It's a safety measure. Just because you can drive without a seat belt and not die doesn't make it a good idea. It's something so suptidly simple and can save your butt. Just like aggro on pulls isn't always needed but it's so easy to do, and can save you when thi ng s don't go well that it's dumb not to.

Again:
fact: given a choice between tank pulling with aggro, or without aggro, aggro is unequivocally better. There is no advantage at all to having zero hate vs some hate. That is not a debatable point. If you can wave a magic wand to have aggro on everything you face pull it would be better 100% of the time.

Fact: many tanks have been, and continue to pull without taking stupid amounts of damage by hitting buttons on the run to generate aggro on stuff.

Simple logic: aggro better than no aggro+ways to make aggro without excessive damage =better than face pull. Therefore tanks that don't are just adding risk because they can't be bothered to hit buttons. Lazy. Bad. Insert term. If aggro is better and can be done without any real penalties, but yu choose not to anyway, what else do you call that
___________

We get it. Pld sprint is cool in certain circumstances. That doesn't undo the fundamentals of mass pulls.

Pld sprint runs are a special case that don't make efficiencies in all groups (need castor dps so all can sprint) and obviously doesn't work for wars. What plds can add in run speed wars can add in damage anyway.

[Ceodore]

Really, OP is right. As someone who mains BOTH tanking classes, planning on including the third as well, and plays as scholar and summoner, any time I see a tank pulling a group of mobs using just proximity agro, or who aren't able to time their Flashes of Overpowers correctly to hit everything automatically loses my commendation when I dps or heal. Go back to tanking 101 if you can't perform these simple tasks. It isn't even hard to know which mob you failed to gain agro on, as there is a list of mobs that are aggroed to you, and it is all too easy to cycle through those names to find the one you missed (Or maybe that's just because I play on PC, in which case, get gud or don't bother trying). This isn't the kiddy pool dps league where all you do is lawl, button mash, and giggle at the high numbers. Your job as a tank is to get and maintain the attention of a mob, and only letting that attention go in the event of things like tank switches, or if agro is simply impossible to establish due to a fight mechanic. If a tank can't do that in the face of Regen, Medica II, or Fey Covenant, then go back to the pre 50s and learn your job again, or seek help from someone who knows the job inside and out. The tools are all there, this isn't an issue with the game or your hardware. This is a PICNIC issue... Problem In Chair Not In Computer. If you accidentally miss one mob, then pick it up. Don't just keep running away and let the healer get punched in the face, or they will let you get gang banged by your pull. If a dps pulls a mob off your group, then you're likely not at fault, because they should be waiting until you establish a base of operations before releasing their load all over the place. But if your healer gets agro, then you're doing something wrong. There is NO reason for your healer to out agro you. Everyone always says there's so many ways to play a class, but the truth of it is, there are only one or two best ways to play them. Learn them or beat it, those are your options. No one else should have to hold your hand and tell you you're just such a special snowflake and that others just have to change their methods for your entitled butt. Protect your healer, pick up all the trash on your pull, and maintain agro. That's your job, so do it. Also, you can drop buffs like regen, medica II, Fey Covenant, and even Stoneskin and Protect off your bar early by right clicking on them. I suppose that might be ANOTHER benefit of playing an MMO on a computer instead of a console though.

TL;DR If dps gets your pull agro, their fault. If healer takes your pull agro, your fault. Get gud or play something else.

P.S. I don't care if I sound heartless either. Only scrubs don't like the truth of it.

[Gorlioliolio]

Simple logic: aggro better than no aggro+ways to make aggro without excessive damage =better than face pull. Therefore tanks that don't are just adding risk because they can't be bothered to hit buttons. Lazy. Bad. Insert term. If aggro is better and can be done without any real penalties, but yu choose not to anyway, what else do you call that.

Pld sprint runs are a special case that don't make efficiencies in all groups (need castor dps so all can sprint) and obviously doesn't work for wars. What plds can add in run speed wars can add in damage anyway.

The penalties being more damage taken and the risk of overhealing pulling agro off the 1 lob on each mob because a LOT of pulls require you to run stupidly out of the way in order to walk into the middle to flash, or stand around for a couple seconds as they all get to you while you could instead lob 1 and keep running, take less damage and NOT require that healing.

I should really point out that my sprint methods are for use with premade groups only, don't try that in df pugs, way to many stupid people to pull it off without someone taking agro from you, in df pugs flash/lob everything and stop yourself short of what you would do with a premade because most people suck.

Also don't need caster dps, fists of wind, ninja speed, swiftsong, really only leaves drgs behind and if they don't attack anything they can be back at 800-900 tp by fight time anyways. Also wars can pull this off too with goad or a bard playing tp song before pull starts.

[Gorlioliolio]

Your job as a tank is to get and maintain the attention of a mob, and only letting that attention go in the event of things like tank switches, or if agro is simply impossible to establish due to a fight mechanic. If a tank can't do that in the face of Regen, Medica II, or Fey Covenant, then go back to the pre 50s and learn your job again, or seek help from someone who knows the job inside and out.

You obviously have never played a tank (I read what you said but really? I mean seriously?) because anyone who has can tell you that initial agro automatically goes to healer if the tank isn't smart enough to click off regen/medica 2. It's easy enough to pick back up but advocating mass pulling with either of these going is just plain stupid.

Also, you can drop buffs like regen, medica II, Fey Covenant, and even Stoneskin and Protect off your bar early by right clicking on them. I suppose that might be ANOTHER benefit of playing an MMO on a computer instead of a console though.

You did read the part in the OP about regen mid pull right?

Also paragraphs... enough said.

[Ceodore]

You obviously have never played a tank (I read what you said but really? I mean seriously?) because anyone who has can tell you that initial agro automatically goes to healer if the tank isn't smart enough to click off regen/medica 2. It's easy enough to pick back up but advocating mass pulling with either of these going is just plain stupid.

How about using the search info function of the lodestone before assuming I don't play tank? Might make you look less like an idiot. Both tanks at 50, and my character is even displayed on the Lodestone for you in my DPS trinkets. Use your tools before you try to be a tool. Yes, I've done this though, pulled without shrugging off my healer's HOTs. It isn't so hard honestly, especially if you're expecting the initial loss of agro. Look where your healer is (likely behind you, hurr durr) and anticipate the location of the mobs. It isn't so hard to even just use a provoke to avoid the GCD of shield lob, then flash or overpower right at the precise moment necessary to get the full group. You make it sound like it's hopeless when it's really just a sign of a bad player if they can't time things like this. Did you pass your geometry class? Your Physics class? Can you understand, direction, motion, and time? I hope so. And regen mid pull shouldn't be an issue either. Not if you are smart with how you pull. Learn your skills, learn their limits, their reach, the amount of animation time before the effect actually triggers. I'm not advocating that all tanks should pull with regen on and never click off a HOT. I am pointing out that is can be done, and to complain about it is just plain and simply a sign that you don't have the skill as a player to pull it off.

It's even more entertaining to think that someone who hasn't even performed through to level 50 on both tanks is trying to school me on how to tank. I bet you wouldn't know which skill to have combo readied on the second phase adds of T13 as a Warrior off tank. Skull Sunder or Butcher's Block? It's Skull Sunder actually, because the animation time on Buthcer's Block is longer, causing the registration of agro to take longer, and causing the mob to wonder away at first and making getting off your Inner Beast before the first Death Sentence impossible. It's little things like this that makes the difference between good tanks, and the great. Know your skills. Watch them, learn the timing and their reach. Flash for instance doesn't instantly register agro. No, it's actually approximately one second after the press of the button that the animation finishes, and the skill's reach and which mobs were within that reach registers. Just because you flashed when the mob was right next to you, doesn't mean the skill is going to hit it. No, it's one second after you initiated the flash that the animation finishes, and the skill's reach and effect registers. Overpower is different. Overpower is almost instantaneous. The animation delay is almost non-existent thanks to the update to the skill many many months ago. The animation lag use to be horrible, almost an entire two seconds. Now, it's about less than half a second. With a 8 yalm reach and a cone that spans approximately 170 degrees in front of you, to miss anything is like shooting a rocket launcher and some how missing the barn less than a foot in front of you.

Whether it's easier to drop the buff or not, obviously isn't an issue, because common sense (and a later part of my post) already agreed that dropping them before the pull is better. But if the healer regens during the pull, then you just adjust. Don't act like the job is so difficult. Mobs almost always cluster together in the dungeons. Instead of Shield Lobbing or Tomahawking from a distance, use Flash or Overpower closer, timed so that you actually catch them all with one. Oh forbid you should have to use a little mental work to play this game.

A healer's job is already difficult enough with having to baby sit the dps, and making it easier on them in anyway is your job as the tank. Cooldown rotations, mob management, aoe avoidance are all crucial. If they feel they need to start your healing earlier to handle that initial spike of incoming damage when the pull ends, then take it, because there is no job more difficult in this game than the healer's. Anyone who attests differently is highly mistaken. As someone who heals as a secondary role, my helm goes off to healers, and my commendation is always theirs.

Adding this...

Also wars can pull this off too with goad or a bard playing tp song before pull starts.

Warriors have access to Flash too. They have more AOE enmity skills available to them than just Overpower. Flash has very little use for a warrior beyond AOE enmity filler for when they run out of TP. Warrior still shouldn't run out of TP. Flash is one of the best skills to use on a gather, since it have more reach in the direction you are pulling than Overpower. Where Overpower is 8 Yalms in a cone in front of you, Flash is 5 yalms radius all around you, meaning even mobs that get behind you or are out of the cone of Overpower on your side when pulling are more likely to be hit with Flash. It is particularly easy to use Flash on the gathering of multiple mobs, saving your TP for when you have them ALL in front of you to use cooldowns in conjunction with Overpower and Steel Cyclone (Bloodbath, Berzerk, Unchained). There is very little use for Flash beyond the initial gather when it comes to warriors. It can not be spammed with the frequency of a Paladin, it lacks the blind that makes the set up of camp easier by making things miss you. So it really just boils down to a GCD filler for Warriors. It's perfect for using on the pull since it will drain your MP, not that you use it for anything else, it gives you more time to recover TP from the last pull, reducing the need for you to be goaded or for a TP song. There isn't a bard I know that doesn't question me when I tell them not to play it for me on warrior, or a ninja that doesn't do the same when I tell them to give their goad to another melee or a bard. It's because the balancing act is easy enough. I almost never finish a mob fight out of TP, and I'm almost always back and full when I set up camp at the end of the next pull. Between generating 5 wrath stacks from the last pull, and Infuriate usually available for pretty much every pull as well as the Wrath stack available on Berzerk and Vengence, the necessity for TP is low, and Steel Cyclone is particularly strong healing under Berzerk and Bloodbath.

[LucklessStrikes]

I don't really understand the problem.

1) Tank pulls mobs.
2) Tank groups mobs.
3) Tank establishes enmity.
4) Group does things.
5) Profit.

How hard is it to just to tag along while things are being grouped up? Is the urge to attack a monster while running or cap off the tank on the move really so bad you're willing to wipe your group in order to do it? You guys are over complicating things.

Tanks who don't generate enmity on the run aren't bad, though they may be doing other things wrong. Healers who heal while grouping mobs are bad, but they may be doing other things right.

[Seryl199]

I'm sprinting constantly as a healer whenever I see a large pull happening (what else would I use TP for?). Whether the tank decides to sprint or not, I can keep up. If the tank doesn't tag every mob and doesn't pull with efficiency, I'm forced to keep a hair trigger on Benediction and can only hope that the tank's train falls in line before I need to pop it so my face doesn't get chewed off. By tagging every mob, I'm able to hard cast Stoneskin (sorry OP, I'd never Swiftcast it XD), then keep up with sprint, regen as soon as the tank is in position, Swiftcast > Holy, and I still have Benediction to keep up DPS and recover from emergencies, and if the tank starts using CD's properly, I won't even need to heal for several GCD's thanks to stuns. It's the difference between catching up and not falling behind in the first place.

Edit: I usually don't find the need to be Stoneskinning mid-pull, but certain pulls require a bit more affection on the tank. Pulls with good distance between groups, where a faltering tank can take a lot of damage, multiple casters that can hit the tank before they get out of range, or when a tank decides to pull wall to wall, picking up 4+ total groups. In a majority of other scenarios, as long as the tank at least keeps moving, a mid-pull heal is unnecessary regardless of whether the tank tags everything. I see the extra effort similar to the extra effort I put in DPS'ing while healing. You don't have to do it, but it sure helps things go on their merry way

[Izsha]

Last few posts are wordy but that doesn't make them wrong.

The pro face pull groups ENTIRE argument is that tanks that generate threat herp derp around and take tons of damage and/or mobs are just impossible to pull because of their positions to not take excessive damage gathering them.

Tanks have come in and said that it can be done without taking damage and those that can't are just doing a bad job.

Do you see the problem here? Pro face pullers say it can't be done without tons of damage, yet tank after tank drops in to say it can be done, they have done it, others have done it, in every dungeon at every level cap all day every day.

You can pull mobs with threat and not take excessive damage. It's been done. There are videos. There are eye witness accounts. There is the word of tanks like myself that he been doing it since AK was serious bizness up through t13 clearing.

It's like walking outside and saying the sun is gone when it's sitting up there giving you sunburn. This isn't an opinion. It's a fact that pulling with aggro can be done by many, many tanks. If you cant, or your buddy tank can't threat without death then they are just lazy or bad. It can, has and will continue to be done weather you believe it or not.