Ideas for Samurai

[Shurrikhan]

snip

While I agree with some of this, keep in mind that Samurai was a class later and a contractual position before (though with its name reserved from otherwise similar buddoshi as if for a class thereof), much like a 'Knight'. They're not to be confused with yeoman, serf, or otherwise conscripted infantry or general mercenaries.

Like knights, if not to a greater extreme, they often had their own standards for involvement in combat and commonly did not combat infantrymen (aside from slaughtering them from atop a warhorse, which was still honorable, while stabbing a charging samurai with a pike as a lowly serf would have been dishonorable). Archery was not limited to the samurai class, but it was just as much a show of a samurai's prowess as the sword; the sword could make a more renowned samurai out of his duels, but his archery skill determined his general worth if a lord, the emperor, or a throne-contender were to be hiring...

To be clear though, I have no wish to see FFXIV's Samurai be an archer. I simply don't see even a fifth as much that can be done with archer gameplay as a Samurai compared to the sword. The spear wouldn't be all that much better. Both would likely feel the overlap with the other shared classes than the Sword (despite likely having the most classes using it) would. The sword is not only iconic and a more traditional representation of an FF Samurai, but also more lucrative/practical/call-it-what-you-will. If the armory system eventually broke down, allowing each job to use multiple weapons, then depending on how they're built the spear and sword might fit well enough with their existent tools, but I'd rather see whatever system is made for SAM capitalize completely on the sword than hold out for any alternate weapons.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

Yea, well the Ashigaru (peasant footmen) came up later and there wasn't a great tradition of them until later
The time before that, the samurai fought other samurai in army warfare during the clan wars that established 200-isolation era.

There was obviously a lot of evolution to the class over the history.
But it can't be denied they developed a sword culture too, and having a famous sword was a status symbol.
Having a good bow, not so much.

I don't think Archery was more worth for hiring as much as they filled the ranks with as much soldiers as they could.
The truly valuable soldiers were the ones who read the Classics and knew the ways of warfare.

And yea, for the last part, we're should be talking about iconography mostly, over history, and FF has its own Samurai tradition already.

Kind of funny that this makes the most sense when you are the focus of your opponent's attacks (and using this 'dancing around' to dodge), yet 'tanking' doesn't remotely allow for that kind of movement, especially because of all the people who won't be hit (except by instant cleaves) anyways need to be able to alternate between bashing the enemy's spine and obliques/flanks.

Unless it's a Counter Tank!

[Shurrikhan]

Yea, well the Ashigaru (peasant footmen) came up later and there wasn't a great tradition of them until later.

I'm not refering to Ashigaru. 'Peasant warriors' does not necessarily mean Ashigaru. Ashigaru (足軽 - lightfeet) is a military term for a particular infantry class in the context of warfare after the establishment of the samurai class (and their pull in politics, eventually leading to the shogunate), so of course the term samurai predates it. Bushi, however, as a more general term for warrior, peasant or otherwise, predates the term Samurai, appearing before the Soga conflict (then referring to people or families trained for and/or charged with military duties, usually of protection) and most prevalently after the Taiho land reforms where the term tended to describe a generally poor class of near-thugs or hired killers/intimidators rather than the likeness of a "samurai class" or even the soldiers drafted for the Kyushu garrison. 'Samurai' as a term came into prevalence only into the decline in Fujiwara power and further divisioning of regional loyalties or especially the 1158 Insei (where the Bushi class, especially via the Minamoto, Taira, and a separate Fujiwara family replaced the former Fujiwara influence) and 1180-5 Genpei (combined on-readings of Minamoto and Taira) conflicts.

Moot point though and I apologize for drawing out this tangent.

I envision samurai to be similar to monk in that it would have stances or in this case the five stance in Kendo...

I would make Samurai more like the Dragoon where it offers not much raid utility but more like monk where if you stay in the fight longer you can be top dps and I imagine it would be top dps. This is countered by the fact that it lack any real party utility other than being a power house. I'd like it to be similar to the wandering Samurai lore in feudal Japan were you have these insanely strong swordsmen who can fend for themselves but often come to gripes when confronted in a party situation. Think Auron from FFX

I'm not sure how effective stances would be as a gameplay mechanic when the entire point is to never be stuck in any one. They're basically end points for otherwise constant transitional movement. Unless each move variably ended at a certain different stance, and then that gap time between GCDs was somehow important, I just don't see how stances could really be applied. To stay in a stance is to never swing, or else to attempt to beat something to death with repeated, identical half-motion strikes, and even then that would only be because the midpoint (such that you could swing without leaving the stance officially) between those stances wasn't useful enough to get its own name.

I am all for SAM's only real party utility being whatever they, personally, can bring to the fight, though. That or something with a large enough variety rather than just Goad/Rezing/Binding, etc., but that would likewise follow Auron - Power Break, etc.

Unless it's a Counter Tank!

Here's hoping.

[Allyrion]

Snip.

Yea, well the term Bushi is much more relevant than Samurai for all intents and purposes. I really just didn't want to bring another term in. Plus it did connote the same meaning later on, and the Bushi class still eventually became synonymous with Samurai. People who had the rice stipends and land. Even the poor ones were still both Samurai/Bushi even when they didn't act like it.

You're right about the rest, but why talk about times that predate the Samurai when discussing the historical Samurai and how they fought? The time of the Samurai was certainly with the rise of the Shogunate so that's really the time period of any relevance to discuss. The peasant warriors fell out of disuse by this time, precisely because the Samurai had solidified the class status and wrested both military and political control of Japan at that point. This was the period of Samurai armies fighting other Samurai armies, so what better time to pull from in terms of iconography or considering the nature of the class (particularly for fighting)?

The Bushi before were still developing what would become the Bushi/Samurai later. Those might as well been proto-Samurai/Bushi. I don't really like using the terms Bushi and Samurai distinctively because they mostly used Bushi for any situation. Bushi, during the later period, still connoted the same elite status that Samurai during the time of the Shogunate. Then again, a lot of Samurai/Bushi were thugs and bullies during any given era so it was really just a matter of privelege (though the principles of Bushido were much more developed in the later periods).

Sorry for the tangent again! I hope SAM comes out soon.

Think Auron from FFX

Auron had such good utility though. Then again all the FFX characters did because the whole system was based on using all of them for counters/buffs/debuffs.
Auron was undoubtedly the tank of that game(even though his damage was good), which is really a role of utility.

He had Sentinel, which made him protect all while he defended.
Also Guard, which took a hit for other characters.
He had Threaten to Stop an enemy.
He even had Entrust to give his Limit Gauge to an ally.
Then obviously all the Breaks.

His Kit was all utility to help the party out and he was clearly the defender and guardian of the group.
Entrust, Guard and Sentinel are particularly sacrificing his own damage/health for the group.

Still, I'd love for SAM to be designed after him.
Especially since his kit is already is based on group play so it's more easily adapted.