The Next Set of "Relic Weapons" in Heavensward

[Wolfandre]

Cilia, what you're getting at is a little too deep a conversation to be had over an MMO, especially a theme-park one, where our actions don't have consequences or implications. They only show character progress and player-retention.

You mentioned Spec-Ops (haven't played it, but I'm assuming you and I both know it from EC), which is an introspective narrative that talks to the player and asks them questions they don't want to answer. The same cannot be said for FFXIV, which asks us to just be the silent, chaotic good protagonist with a penchant for doing everything and anything in the name of good. Our narrative is being helpful. The quests have NPCs asking us to help them with chores. Heck, even the shady class of the game is just chalk full of good-guys.

Now, that doesn't mean that the question cannot be asked, but due to the focus of the game not being that question, the answer isn't really going to be found and must therefore be inferred or have the gaps filled in by the player. It was mentioned that the logical inconsistencies of the relic questline only obfuscates the morality of the character/player because of the lack of narrative of that morality. That just means it can be taken either way. You are either laying waste to the country-side, harvesting aether from living beings and leaving a wake of bloody destruction behind you or you are going out into the world and purging it of evil, refurbishing/rehabilitating the souls you come across and improving and bettering yourself along the way (in the form of forging a new weapon which helps you then go out and do more good).

Until those gaps are filled in for us, we are left to fill them in for ourselves. The 'hero' aspect, at that point, is really a Fable-series styled hero, where the definition of 'hero' is up to the, well, hero. I think, at that point, the question doesn't become one of morality but one of self-definition.

[Urielparadox]

The beast men tribe quest basicly all tell you why, and also a lot of the fates tell you why as well. Most people don't read the fate descriptions though. If they aren't tempered why would the guard the primals, something that destroys their own people. Remember the ascians tricked the beastmen into this and they didnt know they were going to be tempered, and this created rifts within their own community. We also know that we are at war with the beast tribes because of the problems they create for Earozea. If The Beast men Would Have Listened and not summoned primals we would still be at peace with many of them but they put their 1 tribe and 1 rave above all others not caring if everyone else was wiped out or the planet destroyed because they wanted a primal to protect them.

[Fenral]

The 'hero' aspect, at that point, is really a Fable-series styled hero, where the definition of 'hero' is up to the, well, hero. I think, at that point, the question doesn't become one of morality but one of self-definition.

Yeah, no. It's been much worse in more recent storylines, but I've often found myself smiling and nodding in time to actions and philosophies I object rather strongly to, but are treated in-game as universally acknowledged truths. It's pretty clear that, as far as Producer-Director Yoshida is concerned, we're one very specific type of hero with pretty much zero wiggle-room. That's kinda the irony we've been trying to point out.

[Jonnycbad]

Why is the Veil of Wiyu called Wiyu? I feel like this may be a localization error and should be Minwu, named after the wizard from FF2--unless Wiyu is a character from the SCH storyline (not sure, never leveled SCH).

[WhiteArchmage]

The Veil of Wiyu is a minor item from Final Fantasy Tactics, it's a treasure you get at random coming back from certain bar missions. It tells the story of a woman and, iirc, there was a drama cd with the story at some point but right now I don't quite remember what it was about.

[Cilia]

Cilia, what you're getting at is a little too deep a conversation to be had over an MMO, especially a theme-park one, where our actions don't have consequences or implications. They only show character progress and player-retention.

...

Until those gaps are filled in for us, we are left to fill them in for ourselves. The 'hero' aspect, at that point, is really a Fable-series styled hero, where the definition of 'hero' is up to the, well, hero. I think, at that point, the question doesn't become one of morality but one of self-definition.

I know what I'm asking is far and above the sort of thing an MMO deals with. MMOs are simple, "Kill the bad guys, get your phat lewtz." No consequences to live with, beyond what happens in the MSQ. Even so, I thought it'd be fun to try and ask people the same uncomfortable questions Spec Ops asks players.

(And what the kupo is EC? I played that game meself! Hence, why I do not really feel like a hero... and am seriously gonna Dark Knight it up in 4 days.)

There is no moral complexity to the game. The bad guys and good guys are cut and dry, clear as night and day. The PC is the good guy, "Eorzea's hope" as Minfilia so succinctly puts it. Anything you do is justified or excused by the narrative because it's for the "greater good"... even if that's mindlessly slaughtering sentient beings for a glowing stick because a musty book told you to do it.

Is that justified because those same sentient beings are the thralls malicious, planet-killing gods and goddesses? Maybe. I'd wager most players just do it for fun and profit, though.

[Jonnycbad]

Since other Locations and Artifacts/Artefacts from FFT were from previous FF games, I assumed it was a poorly localized version of "Veil of Minwu/Minyu". Since FF2, whenever he is mentioned, his name is always differentially localized as Minwu/Ming-wu/Mindu/Minhi/Minyu/Minu, so I figured Wiyu was another poor translation.

I guess, however, that since "Books" as weapons have only existed in like 2 or maybe 3 FF games ever, they were running out of ideas for legendary book names, so pulled from FFT.

[Jonnycbad]

This is a JRPG. In JRPG's you're always the hero, unequivocally. It's only western style RPGs like D&D or Elder Scrolls that let you play any alignment and thus have more freedom. JRPGs are a spinoff of shonen style manga where the protagonist is a young male who grows up throughout the adventure from a weak boy to a great hero, meeting interesting allies along the way. Most Japanese players, when polled, prefer to play a theme-park RPG where they take on the role of a predefined character and witness a predefined story unfold and to them, experiencing that story is the art of the game, like a novel or a movie. Playing your own adventure is a bit different in that it's much looser, kind of like those "create your own adventure" books you might have read growing up (if you save the woman, turn to page 42, if you murder her turn to page 112, etc)..
Both have their own merits, JRPGs tell a great story with character development whereas the sandbox RPG is more amorphous and sometimes a bit detached and sometimes generic feeling.

The intermediate version of RPG that reconciles both of these worlds are games like Mass Effect, which tell an amazingly fascinating story with great character development, but there are maybe 5-6 different paths one can take that drastically alter the outcome of major plot points. While not as unhinged and unlimited as Skyrim, it's still not as linear as say Final Fantasy, so you really get the best of both.

[WhiteArchmage]

The Germonique Scriptures as the Summoner Mythic weapon, you heard it here first, folks!

[Cilia]

snip

Oh, please. Do not lecture me on genre conventions and the differences between western RPGs and JRPGs.

That's not what I'm getting at.