The Next Set of "Relic Weapons" in Heavensward

[Fenral]

The 'hero' aspect, at that point, is really a Fable-series styled hero, where the definition of 'hero' is up to the, well, hero. I think, at that point, the question doesn't become one of morality but one of self-definition.

Yeah, no. It's been much worse in more recent storylines, but I've often found myself smiling and nodding in time to actions and philosophies I object rather strongly to, but are treated in-game as universally acknowledged truths. It's pretty clear that, as far as Producer-Director Yoshida is concerned, we're one very specific type of hero with pretty much zero wiggle-room. That's kinda the irony we've been trying to point out.

[Cilia]

Cilia, what you're getting at is a little too deep a conversation to be had over an MMO, especially a theme-park one, where our actions don't have consequences or implications. They only show character progress and player-retention.

...

Until those gaps are filled in for us, we are left to fill them in for ourselves. The 'hero' aspect, at that point, is really a Fable-series styled hero, where the definition of 'hero' is up to the, well, hero. I think, at that point, the question doesn't become one of morality but one of self-definition.

I know what I'm asking is far and above the sort of thing an MMO deals with. MMOs are simple, "Kill the bad guys, get your phat lewtz." No consequences to live with, beyond what happens in the MSQ. Even so, I thought it'd be fun to try and ask people the same uncomfortable questions Spec Ops asks players.

(And what the kupo is EC? I played that game meself! Hence, why I do not really feel like a hero... and am seriously gonna Dark Knight it up in 4 days.)

There is no moral complexity to the game. The bad guys and good guys are cut and dry, clear as night and day. The PC is the good guy, "Eorzea's hope" as Minfilia so succinctly puts it. Anything you do is justified or excused by the narrative because it's for the "greater good"... even if that's mindlessly slaughtering sentient beings for a glowing stick because a musty book told you to do it.

Is that justified because those same sentient beings are the thralls malicious, planet-killing gods and goddesses? Maybe. I'd wager most players just do it for fun and profit, though.

[Jonnycbad]

This is a JRPG. In JRPG's you're always the hero, unequivocally. It's only western style RPGs like D&D or Elder Scrolls that let you play any alignment and thus have more freedom. JRPGs are a spinoff of shonen style manga where the protagonist is a young male who grows up throughout the adventure from a weak boy to a great hero, meeting interesting allies along the way. Most Japanese players, when polled, prefer to play a theme-park RPG where they take on the role of a predefined character and witness a predefined story unfold and to them, experiencing that story is the art of the game, like a novel or a movie. Playing your own adventure is a bit different in that it's much looser, kind of like those "create your own adventure" books you might have read growing up (if you save the woman, turn to page 42, if you murder her turn to page 112, etc)..
Both have their own merits, JRPGs tell a great story with character development whereas the sandbox RPG is more amorphous and sometimes a bit detached and sometimes generic feeling.

The intermediate version of RPG that reconciles both of these worlds are games like Mass Effect, which tell an amazingly fascinating story with great character development, but there are maybe 5-6 different paths one can take that drastically alter the outcome of major plot points. While not as unhinged and unlimited as Skyrim, it's still not as linear as say Final Fantasy, so you really get the best of both.

[Cilia]

snip

Oh, please. Do not lecture me on genre conventions and the differences between western RPGs and JRPGs.

That's not what I'm getting at.

[Allyrion]

There is no moral complexity to the game. The bad guys and good guys are cut and dry, clear as night and day. The PC is the good guy, "Eorzea's hope" as Minfilia so succinctly puts it. Anything you do is justified or excused by the narrative because it's for the "greater good"... even if that's mindlessly slaughtering sentient beings for a glowing stick because a musty book told you to do it.


Is that justified because those same sentient beings are the thralls malicious, planet-killing gods and goddesses? Maybe. I'd wager most players just do it for fun and profit, though.

Black and white duality can be complex.
FF's more like a mix of Marcus Aurelius's Stoicism and Immanuel Kant's Transcendental Idealism.
There is depth to that, it's just a beneath the surface of the reasoning.
FF has a history of being aware of any questionability, but rebukes it with a stoic response. Fully aware of its stance.

With players, I'm pretty sure CoD or other games that don't narrative for their main game focus is actually a better argument for Nihilism.
Or most other MMO's where you kill massive amounts of sentient beings without any backstory justification.

Morally grey stories can be done well.
But they're usually surface level deep for psudeo-philosophers to think their thoughts are provoked, but usually over the same tried issues.
It's a cop-out because like more simple black and white stories, it doesn't acknowledge the difference between a priori and posteriori heritage of morality.

See, that kind of blind sheep mentality is exactly what you need to stop following. Kind of part of the reason for the Dragonsong War, or so Ysayle says. Still, I'm glad you're able to grasp the fundamentals.

The silent protagonist should not be taken as a person with choices.
They are more of an agent of the world.
It's precisely because these games still use a silent protagonist, without choice, that it emphasizes a deterministic but non-nihilistic(usually brought up, such as with the Gaius Baelsar) narrative.
In these cases, there was never any real choice anyway. It's an illusion.

[Cilia]

snip

Eheh... I wasn't trying to bring philosophy into this. I'm not a learned philosopher, and I totally accept that the game has a black and white view of morality. Maybe kind of grey in regards to the Garleans and Grand Companies sometimes.

Anyway, the player character is a silent protagonist, but that just makes them an extension of the player. In that regard, there is always a choice, doubly so with regard to the totally optional Relic Weapons (what the original topic is about). Takes a bit of out-of-the-box thinking, but there is a choice.

C'mon, give it a shot! Work those brain cells!

[Allyrion]

Eheh... I wasn't trying to bring philosophy into this. I'm not a learned philosopher, and I totally accept that the game has a black and white view of morality. Maybe kind of grey in regards to the Garleans and Grand Companies sometimes.

Anyway, the player character is a silent protagonist, but that just makes them an extension of the player. In that regard, there is always a choice, doubly so with regard to the totally optional Relic Weapons (what the original topic is about). Takes a bit of out-of-the-box thinking, but there is a choice.

C'mon, give it a shot! Work those brain cells!

Well, because of the given setting, the context can be assumed to still follow the type of character the Warrior of Light is.

But if we're talking about player motivations, I agree.
It's on the same level, though, to me as those who raid or do content without caring about the story.
Even when there is clearly outlined context, it matters little to these type of players anyway.
They play to kill stuff and get rewarded.

In this particular case, the players that consider the setting and context should assume there is more backstory that fits the PC.
For the players that don't, they just kill stuff cause it's fun and they get rewarded.
It didn't matter, to the latter, if those things are sentient or not because the story and setting is irrelevant to them.

The choice might be there, but it's a binary one.
If you reach the point of considering the setting to think of the killing of other sentient creatures as wrong, you might as well consider there might be more in books to justify it.

There are a lot of good cases for choice in games.
Just not really for a theme park MMO, with such the PC being a paragon of heroism.


But on the other side, I agree about people thinking more about what they're doing in the game.
People are different though. And playing and battling without considering the story or knowing why you're fighting, it's not really something I understand.
But I can't tell people how to play, and games like Chess or Go are mental exercises which can be fun.
To some extent, this is an extension of that.

[Urielparadox]

The beast men tribe quest basicly all tell you why, and also a lot of the fates tell you why as well. Most people don't read the fate descriptions though. If they aren't tempered why would the guard the primals, something that destroys their own people. Remember the ascians tricked the beastmen into this and they didnt know they were going to be tempered, and this created rifts within their own community. We also know that we are at war with the beast tribes because of the problems they create for Earozea. If The Beast men Would Have Listened and not summoned primals we would still be at peace with many of them but they put their 1 tribe and 1 rave above all others not caring if everyone else was wiped out or the planet destroyed because they wanted a primal to protect them.

[Jonnycbad]

Why is the Veil of Wiyu called Wiyu? I feel like this may be a localization error and should be Minwu, named after the wizard from FF2--unless Wiyu is a character from the SCH storyline (not sure, never leveled SCH).

[WhiteArchmage]

The Veil of Wiyu is a minor item from Final Fantasy Tactics, it's a treasure you get at random coming back from certain bar missions. It tells the story of a woman and, iirc, there was a drama cd with the story at some point but right now I don't quite remember what it was about.