If you disable cleric stance during combat, when would you use it?

[KisaiTenshi]

force removing an important mechanic of healer classes is not going to magically make bad healers good no matter how much you want to try and complain and justify it and it's not even a problem that needs fixing.

In the context of the game, it would require making the game so extremely inflexible that you can do nothing but follow the choreography, rather than actually decide what is is a best use of MP and Cooldowns.

If we wanted to get rid of "players with bad intent" rather than encourage good behaviors, locking out CS in dungeons would be the lowest-effort solution. Rather the game needs to give players what they want, which is allowing healers to queue as DPS so their DPS actually matters, leaving the healer slot to the players that actually queued to do healing. Maybe we can call these players "red healers" and change the icon from green to red.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

If we wanted to get rid of "players with bad intent" rather than encourage good behaviors, locking out CS in dungeons would be the lowest-effort solution.

How would that be a "solution". For any content where DPS checks are a thing, the blame gets shifted to someone else and turns the situation into a blame game. In other words: Nothing new, just a different scapegoat. However, it is a fact that each encounter has a certain required healing output during specific moments of the encounter. If this healing output is met, the party stays in good shape. If it's not met, then the party will slowly bleed out. But no encounter requires both healers to be healing full time, just like how tanks aren't both tanking full time. Or are you going to argue that tanks should always be tanking like how healers should always be healing?

Dealing damage as a healer is not mandatory. No one ever stated that. It is a big plus and definitely something to aim for when a player's trying to improve their own capabilities and competence. Inability to do so is simply lack of practice. Unwilling to do so, on the other hand, could be classified as laziness or responsibility dodging. You know what it's called if a healer contributes with damage? It's making the encounter more forgiving. Maybe not for the healers themselves, but definitely for those who are "supposed" to do damage. You probably won't get recognition for doing so or any commendations for it. But glory hogs among healers is a different story.

Rather the game needs to give players what they want, which is allowing healers to queue as DPS so their DPS actually matters, leaving the healer slot to the players that actually queued to do healing. Maybe we can call these players "red healers" and change the icon from green to red.

This isn't much different from "rather giving players what they want"

Edit:
Before you requote on me, KisaiTenshi, go read this first:

I just can't get over the fact that there are players so vexed that others try to play well and maximize their job that they want to drag everyone down to their level. And they don't see the irony in this, in getting incredibly mad that people are enjoying a meta towards DPS and their solution is to force others to play the way they like playing instead.

Imagine you're driving on the road and there's a stubborn, bitter cyclist on the road ahead. Instead of giving way they just block traffic and make everyone go their pace. That's what this boils down to, small insecure people who want to make job boring and tedious to a lot of players because even though they get mad when others tell them how to do their job, they want to do the same back.

[VanilleFang]

Rather the game needs to give players what they want, which is allowing healers to queue as DPS so their DPS actually matters, leaving the healer slot to the players that actually queued to do healing. Maybe we can call these players "red healers" and change the icon from green to red.

I don't recall ever running into a healer who only wanted to DPS; I have never met a healer who queued up as a healer just to DPS because the queue was faster, and people entering CS doesn't mean they focus on dealing damage rather than healing. Like I asked in the other thread, why does it seem like it's all or nothing with you? You seem to have an issue grasping that a good healer in FFXIV can keep the party alive and can also deal damage during healing down time.

[GideonHighmourn]

I can't believe this is even being debated, really.

To answer the original question, no. I'd never use it.

[Atlaworks]

I don't recall ever running into a healer who only wanted to DPS; I have never met a healer who queued up as a healer just to DPS because the queue was faster, and people entering CS doesn't mean they focus on dealing damage rather than healing.

Really? Because I get those like... 35-50% of the time in DF queues, if the content is level 50. It really is an issue; though generally speaking it can be solved with a vote kick if the healer is being a jerk about it. My main issue personally is them doing too much damage(Mostly just holy spam), and while I'm cool with healers DPSing if they're comfortable with it, it should never invalidate the people dedicated to DPS with the longer queues. So seeing things like "We need more attack skills SE can we have Holygajablahblah" or "I want more water spells give me more fluid auras" or "If you take away CS I won't heal and that means no one will heal and you'll never get to do a dungeon again so nyah" both discourages debate of things like balance and makes me wonder how many healers value DPSing above healing. That should not be a thing- the "Healer is DPS with a faster queue" mentality exists because of just how high their damage potential is and how ignorable healing is for the most part when you overgear content.

Personally, I think the best solution is to nerf Cleric Stance, as well(Or holy. Ughhhh holy.). But y'know, not remove it being toggled in combat at all. Though it would solve the problem, it'd overdo it. I recognize any nerfing of healer damage will make healers just shout and cry and claw innocent people and creatures' eyes out because the healing community is the loudest to cry about problems outside the summoners, but I think a simple solution might just be to make Cleric Stance swap a percentage of INT and MND, as opposed to all of it. It'd mean their damage potential isn't enough to outdo DPS in any situation, and that if they mess up stancedancing or something goes wrong their healing isn't entirely destroyed. Maybe like 75-80% instead of 100%.

[Cynfael]

My main issue personally is them doing too much damage(Mostly just holy spam)

*blink* What? I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to being annoyed that their dungeon runs or add phases were taking less time due to Holy use. Holy is a useless spell for boss fights (except the odd fight with lots of adds), and everyone wants to clear trash faster anyway, so what's the issue? You also can't really compare WHM AoE to, say, MNK AoE. If you compare it to that of a strong AoE DPS Job like BLM, the BLM will pull ahead for several reasons (e.g. Holy having a hefty MP cost, the WHM lacking sufficient MP sustain to keep it up perpetually, the BLM having enormous potency during AF phase, and the WHM occasionally having things to do like, say, healing).

It'd mean their damage potential isn't enough to outdo DPS in any situation.

Given that the majority of DPS players don't even approach their damage potential in any situation right now, no thank you. If more players really tried to improve and to play well, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. An excellent healer can and will out-damage a poor DPS in most any situation, but the same can be said of a tank vs. DPS, especially the OT.

[KisaiTenshi]

Why even bother playing the game if all you're trying to do is encourage the lowest common denominator with zero allowance for deviation? Where's the fun in that? I enjoy having the tools to encourage high levels of play and adaptability. Please do not take that away from me.

Isn't that what I said? Not much fun in an inflexible designs. But at the same time, if you make every role a DPS, then every dungeon run is a race to the finish instead of a collaborative effort. Games that do this are worse, because then it encourages just soloing the content through brute-force, and is no fun for anyone but the first player to do it.

Each "pull" without a tank should flatten a party in 5 seconds. Each pull without a healer should cause a wipe in 5 seconds. Each pull without any DPS should take an agonizingly long time as the tank and healer would have to slow-burn the mobs down. Anything other than than this for the "3-role" system in FFXIV is a bad dungeon design balance. If you lose the tank or healer during a pull then it really should be a wipe, every time.

I assume that you mean that literally, and it is true in that sense, but in the bigger picture it's important to note that CS makes for incredibly effective healers. Unnecessary healing converted to additional damage = more efficient progress towards duty completion and fewer opportunities for bad things to happen.

Right, the DPS-WHM who enters the dungeon in CS, and never turns it off, is certainly playing poorly, especially when the SCH co-healer might have better DPS output with much less risk. But as I mentioned before, players are certainly queuing as healer and then choosing not to heal on 8-man/24-man content.

You're positioning your own assumptions as fact again. Unless you can page Yoshida over here or else find a quote that says something to the effect of "Despite having given healers (and off-tanks, for that matter) abilities to increase their damage, it never, ever occurred to us that players would want to use them to complete duties more quickly," you can't credibly throw out statements about "how dungeons were designed" or "what the developers intended."

That's exactly what is being said.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

The dungeons are designed against the DPS output at the minimum ilevel minus 15% to clear it. Up until this interview was posted, there was some posters who were adamant that healer DPS was required to get past all DPS checks regardless of gear. NO. Only if the DPS is being carried by the healer. If everyone is overgeared, the added DPS from the healer shaves a few seconds off a clear. If the Healer is geared better than the DPS to a point that the dungeon can't be cleared without their DPS output, then the DPS just plain are terrible at their job.

*blink* What? I think this is the first time I've ever seen anyone admit to being annoyed that their dungeon runs or add phases were taking less time due to Holy use. Holy is a useless spell for boss fights (except the odd fight with lots of adds), and everyone wants to clear trash faster anyway, so what's the issue? You also can't really compare WHM AoE to, say, MNK AoE. If you compare it to that of a strong AoE DPS Job like BLM, the BLM will pull ahead for several reasons (e.g. Holy having a hefty MP cost, the WHM lacking sufficient MP sustain to keep it up perpetually, the BLM having enormous potency during AF phase, and the WHM occasionally having things to do like, say, healing).

You know which bosses are good for Holy? The MSQ because they have lots of adds. Outside of those, I can't think of one where all the adds dogpile onto the healer.

Given that the majority of DPS players don't even approach their damage potential in any situation right now, no thank you. If more players really tried to improve and to play well, we wouldn't even be discussing this right now. An excellent healer can and will out-damage a poor DPS in most any situation, but the same can be said of a tank vs. DPS, especially the OT.

If there was a way to implicitly queue for DPS using a Tank or Healer, with a permanent stance-lock, we wouldn't even be having this discussion because then those that don't want to MT or don't want to Heal can just DPS and quit taking up the "fast queue" , it's bad enough that there aren't enough players who want to play the roles.

I'm actually surprised SE doesn't have dungeon mechanics that specifically target one healer in a way that would make "fast queue"'ers think twice. Like imagine a mechanic that causes all players to drop to 1hp and if both healers don't use their party healing in the next 5 second the entire party wipes.

[Cynfael]

That's exactly what is being said.

Actually it isn't. What was said was that healer DPS wasn't taken into account when calculating clear minimums for raid content. Doesn't mean the same thing or even close to what you are suggesting it means.

To be extra clear, they are obviously aware of the fact that healers do DPS; what they have been choosing not to do is purposely tune encounters so high that the DPS are unable to meet the minimum clear check without healer help (assuming that the DPS are performing close to average expectation for the target ilvl).

[KisaiTenshi]

Is anyone in this thread is even reading the linked posts, let alone anything in the thread.


http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...-Event-5-19%29

So you expect it to go up overall?

Yoshida: Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be.

――それほどは全体で見るとそれほど伸びてないと？

吉田氏：　そうですね。レベル60で全ジョブとも今まで以上にDPSが上がっているので、白魔道士も見合った分だけ伸びるという意味なだけです。もともと開発チームでは、大迷宮バハムートなど、レイド攻略の際には一般の腕のプレーヤーがクリアできるであろうアイテムレベルを想定しています。その想定アイテムレベルに到達した4DPSとタンクの基礎DPSを合算して、さらに10％から15％のしきい値を下げてクリア想定を作っています。ヒーラーのDPSは計算に入れていません。

　ただ、確かに世界トップレベルの人たちは、最速攻略争いをするので、開発が想定したアイテムレベルよりも、低いアイテムレベルでクリアを目指します。そうなると、4DSPとタンクの基礎DPSだけでは数値的にクリアできなくなり、結果、出せるDPSがあるなら、少しでも多くDPSを、ということで彼らはヒーラーのDPSも計算して攻略しようとします。それらのクリア動画が出ると、ヒーラーもDPSを出しているため、「ヒーラーもDPSを！」と思われがちですが、それは「無理をしてクリアしようとしている」から発生しているシチュエーションです。これを完全に数値で足切りして、想定アイテムレベル以下ではクリアできないように作ることも可能なのですが、それではプレーヤースキルの高い人たちに、工夫して全員の意思疎通やアイテム理解度を上げ、ギリギリのギリギリを付いてクリアする、という遊びを無くしてしまうことになります。難しい判断ではありますが、やはり固定パーティーの方針次第かなと思っています。

　このことは今回機工城アレキサンダーがノーマルとハードの2つを実装することになった理由の一因でもあります。繰り返しになりますが、開発チームはレイドの攻略にヒーラーのDPSを含めていませんので、今回のレベルキャップ開放でも他のジョブと比べて、ヒーラーとしての上昇分を足しただけと思って欲しいです。

So:
1. Yoshida says that they do not design the dungeons with the healers DPS in mind during development and DPS set 10-15% below expected gear.
2. Yoshida says that people who post videos "first clears" clearing the dungeon, use their healers to make up for shortfall in DPS
3. Yoshida says that this gives players the mistaken impression that Healers are required to DPS to complete the dungeon when the "Clear" videos using healers to DPS used the healers to make up for shortfalls in DPS.


I don't know of anyone actually bragging that they cleared FCoB with ilevel 90 gear when the previous dungeon gave ilevel 110 gear.

The minimum ilevel only ensures that you don't get parties that would never be able to complete the dungeon, no matter what the party and gear configuration is. Things like the Enrage timer insure that you can't just enter with the minimum ilevel and take your time. It also prevents being players from just being carried by without raising the gear requirements of everyone else in the party. A full party of minimum ilevel never happens in practice. If they raised the entry requirements to that of the previous dungeons gear, then it would actually require increasing the difficulty further.

There are however people who enter WoD, at ilevel 90 with the sole purpose of trying to get the i120 gear, skipping buying tomes gear or even doing ST for any gear. There are also bad players who enter WoD wearing crafting gear.

[Neophyte]

Like I asked in the other thread, why does it seem like it's all or nothing with you? You seem to have an issue grasping that a good healer in FFXIV can keep the party alive and can also deal damage during healing down time.

+++++

I queue up as healer to be a healer. But if its e.g. Snowcloak, then what should I do all the time?!
Last time i got a tank who did only small pulls, my fairy healed enough (especially if Tank got Adlo/Stoneskin) so that I could just stand there and do nothing. Very exciting. Wait.. just take my fariy with you, I'll go to sleep.

You really think it's a good idea, that SCH can only join with CS perma-off in dungeons? Yeah, sounds fun hitting those 4 buttons once in a while.

What's next? Complaining about tank-stances (tanks should definitly have the tank-stance preset ON in dungeons/trials and shouldn't be able to turn it off. That would be great.... ah, yeah ) or tanks wearing Acessoires of Slaying?