ishgard

[Cilia]

Dragonsong suggests Shiva (the historical one, not the Primal summoned in her supposed likeness) was the original ruler of Ishgard and was on friendly terms with the dragons until something created a rift between them. She then sacrificed herself in some manner to prevent the Dragonsong War, but it was for naught because of some manner of treachery.

So... no, I don't think the real Shiva wanted any of this.

[Frederick22]

Dragonsong suggests Shiva (the historical one, not the Primal summoned in her supposed likeness) was the original ruler of Ishgard and was on friendly terms with the dragons until something created a rift between them. She then sacrificed herself in some manner to prevent the Dragonsong War, but it was for naught because of some manner of treachery.

So... no, I don't think the real Shiva wanted any of this.

Ohh I didnt understand the song that good. I could only understand that the song talk of 2 sides that are fighting and killing themselfs for nothing. That both sides are just being puppets ( the meaning of that there is no one on the throne ) and living a lie.
Bu that shiva was supposed to be the original ruler? o.o what about Thordan and Haldralh ?

[Cilia]

Well, we don't know. That's just an inference from the song, lol.

[Frederick22]

Well, we don't know. That's just an inference from the song, lol.

This just pure speculation and there is 99.9% change that I might get it wrong. I'm doing my best based just on the dragonsong trailer ( the part of the echo memorie ).
Could it be that Shiva was original one of the 12 knights? or this was started just beacuse jealousy or a personal vendetta( again I could be wrong again, on the echo vision, the DRG ( dunno who he is, maybe haldralh i dont know) it was going to do something deep personal and the orther knights where like totally oposed )

[Belhi]

Well, it's complicated. While we are entering the war on Ishgard's side, and both Aymeric and House Fortemps are definitely our allies, Middy implies there's a dark secret behind the war. What secret that is, and how people react to it, could easily turn everything on its head. I seriously doubt we'll end up enemies of the state in Ishgard too, so my best theory right now is that Aymeric and House Fortemps might go apostate and we'll end up deposing Archbishop Thordan VII (Ishgard Pope). Nidhogg is definitely going to be antagonistic, though.

I agree, both sides are being played against each other, and ending the war without destroying either side is paramount.

Anyway yeah, Ysayle was pretty clearly just being played by the Ascians. While she has the Echo, Nabriales pretty much tells you outright he taught her the summoning ritual, and it doesn't make sense to summon a Primal if she's wholly on our side. From the look of things we'll reconcile our differences in Heavensward, but I at least want to bop her on the head for being so damn stupid with the whole Shiva affair.

The Truth shall set them free.....

Yeah I kind of want Ysayle to get taken down a peg or too. She is a little too certain of herself and I kind of want to see her eat a little humble pie otherwise I think I will find her insufferable, ally or no. :P

I also heard the idea that the song might also refer to a partnership between dragons and man long ago in the past that events lead to break. I personally have a feeling the Allag might have been involved in that. Whatever happened is really personal for the dragons. Perhaps they were betrayed to the Allag. The song also seems to suggest that Shiva's efforts were betrayed, but not by who. I'm wondering if it was in fact Nidhogg, full of hate towards humans, that shot down any chance of peace.

This leads me to think that the whole Dragonsong war might not only be to sow chaos but to keep those two groups from allying. Perhaps that Alliance is something the Ascians really want to keep from happening.

[Cilia]

Shiva could be one of the Knights Twelve, but I don't recall seeing a distinctly female figure in that scene. Could be, not ruling it out, but don't know yet.

Anyway, 99.9% positive Allag isn't linked to the Dragonsong War. At least not directly. The 6th Astral Era went on for ~1500 years IIRC, and the Dragonsong War's only been going on for 1000 years. Allag was wiped out in the 4th Umbral Calamity, IIRC, and we don't know how long ago that was... so it's pretty much impossible for the War to directly be Allag's fault. Not saying Allag has nothing to do with it, but I just don't see a connection right now...

War could be to prevent an alliance, but I always felt it was more about killing lots of people and/or getting more Primals summoned / created. Time will tell.

[Frederick22]

Shiva could be one of the Knights Twelve, but I don't recall seeing a distinctly female figure in that scene. Could be, not ruling it out, but don't know yet.

Anyway, 99.9% positive Allag isn't linked to the Dragonsong War. At least not directly. The 6th Astral Era went on for ~1500 years IIRC, and the Dragonsong War's only been going on for 1000 years. Allag was wiped out in the 4th Umbral Calamity, IIRC, and we don't know how long ago that was... so it's pretty much impossible for the War to directly be Allag's fault. Not saying Allag has nothing to do with it, but I just don't see a connection right now...

War could be to prevent an alliance, but I always felt it was more about killing lots of people and/or getting more Primals summoned / created. Time will tell.

The times of the allagan empire was about 6000 years ago. I think Rowena tells you that.

[Samcaesar]

Snip

That's the thing, our characters were ousted from a city before (Ie Ul'dah) and it also has market boards and houses various important NPCs like all the class guilds. The story keeps pushing that Ishgard has something up with it and it needs to be changed, I'm not saying we're going to go up to Nidhogg and do a sweet ollie off the Pope's corpse and highfive Nidhogg, but we've got very little reason to trust Ishgard as it is. Especially considering Thordan VII was shown with the Ascians, I don't really see them being so buddy buddy with us either, at least not for long.

It doesn't, but Haurchefant's issue was Francel is obviously not a heretic, not that it's not wrong for Heretics to be executed in such a cruel way (Even though I doubt any of those executions were actually heretics). Halone is a goddess of war don't forget, and I'm not sure her principles are completely inline with Aymeric's pragmaticism. Besides, he had more pressing concerns than slaughtering heretics, what would happen if Shiva wasn't an issue at the time? Heck, if we're looking at a good difference between faithful and blind, look at the Brotherhood of Ash and the Sahagin beastmen tribes that are friendly to us. They see no reason to pursue in the activities of their more zealous counterparts, and were ousted from society in the Brotherhood's case.

Iceheart probably is being played, but I wouldn't be surprised if we were being played as well. I mean, I'll be curious how SE takes the story once we begin to learn about the past (As we still have the echo). Considering this is a war where going up the the Ishgardians and asking them to give Nidhogg's eye back and be nice to the dragons won't stop it, I don't blame her for summoning Shiva, it's the same desperation that beastmen go through and the same desperation I feel that Ishgard is about to go through. Can you really blame her though? Ishgard has no remorse for those heretics she's killed and I don't think even the more pragmatic ones do either, it's all a matter of desperation. I'll be willing to cut Aymeric some slack the second Aymeric starts going "Shoot.. Maybe killing those Heretics isn't the best idea and there's better ways to end this war."

Snip .

At least while entering, for sure! And this is FFXIV, of course both sides are being played against each other because of the Ascians :P Grubby little shadowy shadowless people. She's definitely being played, to what degree, I'm not so sure though, it's the Ascians they love controlling every aspect and also just winding the key on things. Don't worry though! You'll have plenty of time to bop her head, just run Shiva EX more :P I want to bop every Ishgardian on the head for the whole thing that occurred there in 2.0! We'll probably get more closure towards that as we begin our route of ending the Dragonsong war.

Gosh I really wish there wasn't a 20 post limit-24 hour thing >_>

[Nialle]

Ul'dah has so many people jockeying for the top spot without regard to even basic morality that I don't understand why anyone continues to support them, unless it's to keep the corruption confined to one place so everyone knows where the dagger will come from. . .

If you start out in Ul'dah, the Brass Blades basically plant illegal drugs in your wagon as an excuse to try and arrest you, and only an Amal'jaa attack interrupts that little blackmail scheme. It's a safe bet, I think, to assume a large portion of the Blades (who are basically the police) are corrupt right through. Which makes Raubahn's choice to hand over state security to them so he could send more troops to Ishgard a supremely dumb decision. But in his defense, maybe nobody realized things had really gotten so bad. Between that, the Imperial spies in high places, and the typical monetarist plots going on, I'd say as a country Ul'dah is pretty doomed as a reputable country unless something drastic happens (which probably will).

[lololink]

Dragonsong suggests Shiva (the historical one, not the Primal summoned in her supposed likeness) was the original ruler of Ishgard and was on friendly terms with the dragons until something created a rift between them. She then sacrificed herself in some manner to prevent the Dragonsong War, but it was for naught because of some manner of treachery.

So... no, I don't think the real Shiva wanted any of this.

Shiva couldn't have been the first leader of Ishgard, the first leaders were Thordan that had a vision from Halone telling him to take Ishgard as their land, they encounter Niddhog that told them "Get out of my mountain !", they got mad, Thordan died, his son, Haldrath, attacked Niddhog and took his eye, becoming the first dragoon and the leader of Ishgard.