ishgard

[Belhi]

Its worth pointing out that Ishgard was actually attacked. They mention the attack later on. I think his comment suggested that it indicated that someone was feeding the Dravanians information for them to know to attack when he wasn't there, ie. Dravanian spies in Ishgard.

[Viridiana]

Its worth pointing out that Ishgard was actually attacked. They mention the attack later on. I think his comment suggested that it indicated that someone was feeding the Dravanians information for them to know to attack when he wasn't there, ie. Dravanian spies in Ishgard.

That, and the "How the **** do the Ul'dahn Monetarists know about this before we do when it's our job to know?" Something very fishy about that attack, in the sense of "Just how corrupt can Ul'dah be before we decide it's best to just raze the city?"

[Belhi]

That's a case of baby and the bath water. Same could probably be said for Ishgard. Ul'dah has corruption in its rulers but the majority of Ul'dah is alright. For all their distain for refugees, they are the city state that has taken the vast bulk of them in. Ul'dah's Immortal Flames protect the refugees from threats like the Amaljaa in areas like Little Ala Mhigo.

Plus to you really want to be the one to trash Godbert's wife's home?

[Viridiana]

That's a case of baby and the bath water. Same could probably be said for Ishgard. Ul'dah has corruption in its rulers but the majority of Ul'dah is alright. For all their distain for refugees, they are the city state that has taken the vast bulk of them in. Ul'dah's Immortal Flames protect the refugees from threats like the Amaljaa in areas like Little Ala Mhigo.

Would that the corruption were limited to the rulers. Sure, they're the source of it, but their foot soldiers are just as corrupt and not rulers. Ungust was willing to sell people to the Amalj'aa for profit, and he had a man in the Brass Blades in on it. Neither of them are rulers. None of the Crystal Braves who were traitors were rulers that I'm aware of. Heck, Ilberd was the primary traitor and he was a mere refugee. I doubt Nanamo's handmaiden was a ruler. The Brass Blades who were backing Lolorito aren't rulers.

Ul'dah has so many people jockeying for the top spot without regard to even basic morality that I don't understand why anyone continues to support them, unless it's to keep the corruption confined to one place so everyone knows where the dagger will come from. . .

[Nialle]

Ul'dah has so many people jockeying for the top spot without regard to even basic morality that I don't understand why anyone continues to support them, unless it's to keep the corruption confined to one place so everyone knows where the dagger will come from. . .

If you start out in Ul'dah, the Brass Blades basically plant illegal drugs in your wagon as an excuse to try and arrest you, and only an Amal'jaa attack interrupts that little blackmail scheme. It's a safe bet, I think, to assume a large portion of the Blades (who are basically the police) are corrupt right through. Which makes Raubahn's choice to hand over state security to them so he could send more troops to Ishgard a supremely dumb decision. But in his defense, maybe nobody realized things had really gotten so bad. Between that, the Imperial spies in high places, and the typical monetarist plots going on, I'd say as a country Ul'dah is pretty doomed as a reputable country unless something drastic happens (which probably will).

[AzraelX]

ummm Aymeric better not be traitor that would be horrible plot twist.. i think Irvine has had enough betrayal in his life at this pot and don't want to be even more jaded. I actually like Aymeric and appears to be very grateful to the WoL and wants to extend his influence and graces for Ishgards and our benefits. Aymeric was like WTf when he was being called by to Ishgard....i almost thought he wasn't going to leave.

I don't trust the Holy See.....

[Cilia]

In regards to the Dravanian assault, the timing is too perfect to be coincidental. Given the glaringly obvious but unconfirmed possibility the Monetarists are in league with the Ascians (or, at the very least have Ascian contact), and the likely possibility that the Ascians are manipulating Dravania though their mouthpiece (Ysayle)... as well as that Aymeric would instantly call shenanigans if he were still there... I'm pretty sure everything in "The Parting Glass" was carefully engineered and executed.

I don't think Aymeric or Haurchefant will betray us; on the contrary, I'd wager we're going to end up deposing the Ishgard Pope (Archbishop Thordan VII... or VIII... something like that).

[Samcaesar]

Snip

See, that's the thing, it's almost too perfect. Everyone actually likes Aymeric. He, and the rest of the house of Fortemps much too open to outsides, if anything it almost sounds like to me the Ascians are playing a game to get the Warriors of Light in a city where they have their hands dug into the highest of powers. Unlike in Ul'dah, in which the Monetarists hardly control those in lower positions and the lower class, in Ishgard the Pope has an incredibly devout following.

If you don't trust the Holy See, why should you trust devout members of them? Aymeric is a man of faith still.

Snip

See, my only issue with that is I don't think Ysayle is so easily manipulated by the Ascians, she's so far the only one in the story to have the Echo and not be a Scion, with also direct knowledge of Hydaelyn as well saying something along the lines of "Don't squander Mother's gift" to the PC. Honestly, I think she's quite aware of the Ascians and their purpose, especially after the whole Shiva incident, and probably distances herself when she can from them. Why would Aymeric call shenanigans on the events? Raubahn did and we know what happened to him (Where how plausible it is or not :P). Aymeric really doesn't have a reason to shove himself into the midst of an Ul'dah/Eorzea conflict, even the leaders of the other GC (Or well their men) didn't want that.

After we depose the Pope (If we do), which both Aymeric and Haurchefant like being men of faith and all, why wouldn't they betray us? Remember, Haurchefant didn't disobey the church during that Coerthas incident, he just thought that the one guy was framed, if he was an actual Dravanian cohort he'd want him at the bottom of the ravine like anyone else. They still hate dragons and Dravanians.

[Cilia]

See, my only issue with that is I don't think Ysayle is so easily manipulated by the Ascians, she's so far the only one in the story to have the Echo and not be a Scion, with also direct knowledge of Hydaelyn as well saying something along the lines of "Don't squander Mother's gift" to the PC. Honestly, I think she's quite aware of the Ascians and their purpose, especially after the whole Shiva incident, and probably distances herself when she can from them. Why would Aymeric call shenanigans on the events? Raubahn did and we know what happened to him (Where how plausible it is or not :P). Aymeric really doesn't have a reason to shove himself into the midst of an Ul'dah/Eorzea conflict, even the leaders of the other GC (Or well their men) didn't want that.

After we depose the Pope (If we do), which both Aymeric and Haurchefant like being men of faith and all, why wouldn't they betray us? Remember, Haurchefant didn't disobey the church during that Coerthas incident, he just thought that the one guy was framed, if he was an actual Dravanian cohort he'd want him at the bottom of the ravine like anyone else. They still hate dragons and Dravanians.

What I meant is that Ysayle is Dravania's mouthpiece, or Nidhogg's if you want to get more specific, not the Ascians'. We've yet to actually speak to a dragon besides Midgardsormr, who probably does so telepathically, so it can be inferred the average dragon isn't capable of conversing with the Spoken races. The Ascians just gave Ysale the push to be the Dravanians' mortal speaker - their mouthpiece, so to speak. In regards to being manipulated by them, well... you know what they say about madness.

Anyway, Aymeric and Haurchefant are a bit ambiguous on whose side they could end up on, but I'd bank on them turning their backs on the Holy See given the right provocation. While neither of them outright break laws or disobey orders, they seem much more reasonable than the rest of the Ishgardian authorities, and judge people on merit and action over their words. Aymeric outright tells you so when you meet him, with something along the lines of this:

Do you know what sort of man becomes Knight-Commander of the Temple Knights? A man who comes from good stock (high birth). I did not, and yet here I am. I made it this far because I quickly learned to tell the difference between words, actions, and intentions.

There's also Lucia, his second-in-command who isn't even of Ishgardian birth and yet he trusts her with his life. Aymeric has fought tooth and nail to get where he is and trusts people based on their actions over their words. So while he might subscribe to the Ishgardian state religion, like Estinen he seems to be one of the few with the strength to throw away everything he's believed in and accept the harsh truth that everything he's been brought up to believe is all a sinister lie. (Then again he might not be, since he'd be throwing away his life's work. Time will tell.)

Keyword here is seems. (I try to avoid dealing in absolutes unless I have verifiable facts to back them up.)

Pretty sure he'd call shenanigans on Teledji Adeledji's accusation because, as anyone who's spent time dealing with Ishgard knows, they barely have the manpower to keep the Dragonsong War going. There is no way they could spare the manpower to go conquer the rest of Eorzea, and doing so would not help evade the dragons' wrath. The exact accusation is that we were going to "charm [Ishgard] into invading [the rest of Eorzea]," but I'm still pretty sure he'd call shenanigans; that's one of the most bullshit accusations anyone could possibly make, something both Yda and Papalymo gladly point out.

[Samcaesar]

Snip

Ah alright, that makes things a bit more clear. I wonder if dragons can even talk to mortal people without the echo? Not sure which madness reference you're making though!


I think they are very amibiguous, but that ambiguity is exactly what makes me seem so perfect. Course I'm purely speculating here. Who knows, maybe he will end up going DRK on the Pope? :P

Honestly, that "tooth and nail to get where he is" seems to be one of the more curious parts, while he might have, I'd wonder if it wasn't the Ascians pulling the strings to allow it to occur. I mean, we've heard Aymeric is an exception, so it does seem a little odd that is just worked with him. It'd be neat to see what occurs either way, I'm just hoping he betrays us because I've just got some weird want to stomp him into the ground..

Oh good point, honestly if he did sit there, it would make more sense for us to rush to Ishgard as opposed to just hiding away in some grotto in Limsa Lominsa.

Snip

I dunno, I'd figure if you killed the head of someone's religion, they'd probably be pretty mad at you. I mean, the reason why Haurchefant worked with you to clear his friends name wasn't because he saw anything wrong with pushing Dravanians off the cliff, he just thought that the guy in question wasn't a Dravanian. He has emphasized that while he's much more pragmatic than other Ishgard, he's still religious. Til Aymeric realizes that maybe being so devout isn't for the good of anyone, Ishgard included, I don't see him taking a "I'm going to betray the head of my religion because he's wrong!" route.