Extreme 4 & Savage 24 please :)

[Yuri_Hyuga]

DISCLAIMER: This would be OPTIONAL CONTENT & identical in design (minus mechanics) to prior dungeons so no player who doesn't wish such a challenge would be left out from experiencing the dungeons themselves.

I feel like this game is very lacking in challenge for both smaller & larger groups.

So much potential to create very difficult dungeons but since they attempt to cater to players of every skill level, they fall short. Same goes for the Crystal Tower 24 Person Raids. At least, while they're relevant, they're somewhat hard but still very mechanically simple for the most part (dodge, dps check, dodge, stack, repeat).

It's simple... please infuse the dungeons & 24 man raids with some more complex or layered mechanics (along with adding some to the mob groups)... give dyeable versions of their gear drops that're a bit higher in ilvl.

There's a problem when you have such a big playerbase & there's a rift among players who want challenge vs. easing of content. Naturally, you'll always go for easing to assist players in accomplishing or progressing content to maintain interest for them. This however gives midcore players the shaft.

It also gives the shaft to players who enjoy a challenge but prefer to roll in smaller groups (or have trouble scheduling 8 ppl to raid consistently) or have very large FC's.

And no, merely wearing the weakest allowable gear is no good solution. For seasoned MMO players, the skills required are often on auto-pilot even in minimal loot as most of the contents are too mechanically simple. Statistical difficulty needs to go in conjunction with mechanical complexity, one or the other alone is insufficient for a rich challenge. It should be said, I think a strict (harsh) ilvl sync would benefit this format well.

Having normal & savage 8 person raids is a step, but it needs to be applied to 4/24 person as well.

Please tell us you've already done this for HW or plan to do so soon(tm)!

To facilitate this discussion, please share your ideas for Extreme v's of your favorite Dungeon Bosses!

You seen what happens when you try to force people to do something harder, see Steps of Faith.

This would be optional. This' a compromise to the nerfing of contents as it'd be a copy of the lesser difficult dungeons.

People who don't wish for harder content would have zero interest in this besides for completionist purposes (which those people would need to beat Savage SCOB anyway) or to obtain a dyeable set of dungeon armor they enjoy (if Yoshi went this route). These dyeable sets could even unlock through Hunts later on for all I care.

The goal here is optionally more difficult encounters.

The problem of ppl whining is Yoshi didn't implement enough difficulty tiers to satisfy the playerbase to begin with.

This' a solution to that. Win win.

Only reasons more difficult content didn't work in the past:

1) forced to complete MSQ (Steps of Faith)

2) significant plot gating (Binding Coil + Steps of Faith)

3a) imbalance to like contents (pre-nerf Pharos, much harder than it's intended-to-be, equal tiered counterparts but provides equivalent rewards... also, broke precedent for difficulty of prior or future contents of such a type)

3b) inappropriate challenge:reward ratio (pre-nerf Pharos, for its challenge, didn't provide incentive to be worthwhile to players)

[Yuri_Hyuga]

I'll kick it off, Qarn HM Final Boss EXTREME:

New Mummy Marching patterns (diagonals, criss-cross, X, etc.). Now nonstop.

After 50%, they produce quicker & march faster.

Now to where they'll even overlap cross-wise!

The player mummy's now lock-on to a victim & chase them instead.

After 50%, he now periodically forces two players to become mummy's instead of 1.

One is always a DPS, the other always either the tank of healer (perhaps alternating).

[loldrg]

CT was originally slated for 2.0 release but was deemed too difficult for an uncoordinated DF group so it was delayed until 2.1 so they could rebalance it. So theoretically they have at least 1 'savage' 24man ready to go, unless they 'lost' the original files like why we can't have first coil savage. Yoshida has also said in a PAX interview (iirc) that they have always started with a 'savage' mode of at least extreme primals and then tune it down for normal/story modes so this really shouldn't be that big of an issue assuming they do the same with all the other content (savage scob makes it clear that they probably do). He has also said that he doesn't find 4 man 'raid' content particularly interesting since it couldn't have much depth and would force an optimal composition much more than an 8 man raid does which would lead to player exclusion based on role which is something he wants to avoid.

I think a lot of XI players (at least) would also appreciate an Ark Angel type encounter where a 24 man group would have to fight 6 primals at once as a 'savage' encounter necessitating splitting up into 6 4man groups or having a tank and 1-2 healers hold each primal while the rest of the group burns them down in some order that is either pre-determined based on instant wipe mechanics (like T8 towers) or in an order that avoids stacking conflicting mechanics that would kill people. Granted this would probably be really hard to implement with the whole circle arena philosophy if they're to maintain the Titan/Leviathan knock off mechanics or Shiva's frozen floor / ice jail.

[Saccharin]

Net code and 2.5 sec base global makes it hard to have fully hardcore content.

[Yuri_Hyuga]

Sure, 4 man "raids" couldn't be near to the complexity of 8 man variants (have to account for fewer net APM & spatial coverage)...

But I don't think that's a fair enough reason to exclude them.

The tight-knit small group synergy can be very fun & it gives lesser #'s who enjoy a challenge something more to do during off-time from raids.

Besides, these would be very easy to implement compared to other contents.

Slap an ilvl increase on the gear & boost/multiply some preexisting mechanics for the most part.

They wouldn't need to go the whole route of hugely altering the dungeons like the Norm>Hard diff. transitions.

If we want lore explanation, they could be "Minstrel's Ballad: Qarn (hard)," where the Minstrel remembers the encounters we had as way more epic than they actually were lol.

Net code and 2.5 sec base global makes it hard to have fully hardcore content.

Apparently they are increasing the pace of combat significantly in Heavensward. Can't say if they'll be reducing the base GCD but it sounds like they might (and they really should). Besides, we'll have loads more skill/spell speed in i170~ & more TP regenerators than ever (plus, sspeed is being enhanced somehow too... hopeful this means faster TP ticks passively).

[MilesSaintboroguh]

You seen what happens when you try to force people to do something harder, see Steps of Faith.

[Noxifer]

I like this idea.
And the ilvl increase wouldn't need to be that huge (depending on how much more difficult the difficult dungeon/raid is, of course). Say a trickier Labyrinth of the Ancients, where the gear is i85 or i90 and dyeable. For me personally, it wouldn't even need to be a higher ilvl; the dyeability would make it worth it for me.

And like you said, having them be "Minstrel's ballad: xxxx" would be a very good way of implementing it.

You seen what happens when you try to force people to do something harder, see Steps of Faith.

Well, it's not like this would be forcing people to do them. Steps of Faith was forced, since it was part of the MSQ. These would just be extras.



Hm. As an extra.... if we got a couple more of these "minstrel's ballad" things... there could also be a roulette just for those.

[Yuri_Hyuga]

You seen what happens when you try to force people to do something harder, see Steps of Faith.

This would be optional. This' a compromise to the nerfing of contents as it'd be a copy of the lesser difficult dungeons.

People who don't wish for harder content would have zero interest in this besides for completionist purposes (which those people would need to beat Savage SCOB anyway) or to obtain a dyeable set of dungeon armor they enjoy (if Yoshi went this route). These dyeable sets could even unlock through Hunts later on for all I care.

The goal here is optionally more difficult encounters.

The problem of ppl whining is Yoshi didn't implement enough difficulty tiers to satisfy the playerbase to begin with.

This' a solution to that. Win win.

Only reasons more difficult content didn't work in the past:

1) forced to complete MSQ (Steps of Faith)

2) significant plot gating (Binding Coil + Steps of Faith)

3a) imbalance to like contents (pre-nerf Pharos, much harder than it's intended-to-be, equal tiered counterparts but provides equivalent rewards... also, broke precedent for difficulty of prior or future contents of such a type)

3b) inappropriate challenge:reward ratio (pre-nerf Pharos, for its challenge, didn't provide incentive to be worthwhile to players)

[Sunako]

Titan extreme with 23x plumes would be hilarious.

[randysquirrel]

Just can't support this as much as I would like... even the current easy 24 man raids are made up of
25% people just there to do as little as possible, get loot and go
25% trolls to disrupt everything for lulz
25% people with no idea about their role/mechanics/anything
25% actually there for the intended reason of being there