Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

[Anty]

i don't see many advantages in the current vertical progression we have.

1) it is way too fast, most of it can be achieved sleepwalking, it's only a matter of time (no gear piece really feels "great to have" since the initial 2.0 and the first relic).
The first relic at least involved the primals but since some people didnt get it right away they cried so much that SE decided to make it a pure timesink.
Sense of accomplishment? it's a lot higher after i clean my appartment... that is harder

2) the biggest problem is that content gets outdated incredibly fast, which is sad. 90% of the content we have is vanity content and essentially worthless - so sad all the development for this short time down the drain. Just imagine all lvl 50 content had something to offer... how nice... (ofc the difficulty would be a bit more similar but still better then running 3 dungeons all over and have 1 raid available - that matters).

3) the ilvl change should be with every major patch, not with (almost) every little content patch, that is idiotic and frustrating.
And it had nothing to do with casual. i would say the exact opposite. A causal that does have less time will never be able to enjoy more then 1-2 classes (how is that casual).

4) you cannot enjoy your gear for a minute since you are always behind. Making other content less valid since you dont wanna spend time in other content, cause you get this left behind feelign too fast.
(i never had that feelign in ffxi which was very horizontal, and i didnt play it from day one, i think i started after 3rd expansion, i had the feelign that i have so many things to do - in a positive way, now i feel like im having a 2nd job, only difference is that at my current job, the "achievements" actually matter longer....

5) why do i still play? i like the ffxiv franchise, i played since 1.0 and i still hope things slow down and get more enjoyable int he long run and get less focus on gearlvl.
if it doesnt change while 3.0 is going on, that is gonna be my last P2P MMO, since so far, a lot of F2P Mmo offer similar vertical progression and i dont have to pay for it (yes there are some that are enjoyable without spending millions in a cashshop - even though ffxiv has one of the most expensive mounts in a cashshop haha)

[Gilthas]

3) the ilvl change should be with every major patch, not with (almost) every little content patch, that is idiotic and frustrating.

Um, what are you talking about? iLVL changes have only happened every TWO major patches, not every little content patch.

4) you cannot enjoy your gear for a minute since you are always behind. Making other content less valid since you dont wanna spend time in other content, cause you get this left behind feelign too fast.
(i never had that feelign in ffxi which was very horizontal, and i didnt play it from day one, i think i started after 3rd expansion, i had the feelign that i have so many things to do - in a positive way, now i feel like im having a 2nd job, only difference is that at my current job, the "achievements" actually matter longer....

I'm not sure how much you experienced FFXI endgame. But if anything FFXI was the game that felt like a second job to me, and it was a direct consequence of the horizontal progression of the game.

The thing that people that defend horizontal progression keep avoiding to address is that to achieve true horizontal progression we'd have to have several viable equipment sets that let your job perform at its best. FFXI's "horizontal progression" wasn't that. You still had BiS gear, you just had to lug around several pieces of gear for each slot and use equip macros to perform optimally.

But by far the worse consequences of FFXI's "horizontal progression" was:
- To keep gear relevant for years, gear upgrades came along very rarely. It sucked looking at the items added in each update and seeing only 1 or 2 usable pieces if you were lucky.
- To prevent players from gearing up quickly, we had a combination of poor drop rates and severe lockouts. Which basically meant that you'd be doing the same stuff for years to get drops.

But why did FFXI felt more like a job to me than FFXIV? Because to be able to lot on the rare gear I basically had to log in on all linkshell event days (5 days per week, every single day if a HNM was in our timezone) to make sure that I stayed on top of the attendance list.

Does FFXIV have things that feel like a job? Sure. I feel compelled to always get my CT item every week and to cap Poetics. But unlike FFXI, if I feel like taking a break for a few weeks and do other stuff, when I come back getting up to date is quick. If I did that in FFXI I'd fall behind on the attendance list.

And this is why I like FFXIV's vertical progression more. I get upgrades for my jobs a lot faster than I did in FFXI, and that's a lot more fun than spending a year without getting a single equipment upgrade. I prefer outdated content to be kept relevant through stuff like mounts and housing mats (though I really wish they'd add a token system and let us by these with tokens) or through stuff like the relic quest. Basically keep it optional.

[Peachy]

I dont understand how gear being relevant longer is an argument. Why exactly? is glamour not good enough? I still glam the allagan casting set from first coil. Also Im questioning if people understand what horizontal progression is. Its adding stats to gear for other situations, Extra elemental or enfeeble resistances, increased regen potency, are just a couple examples of horizontal progression in a gear based game. They do not replace your primary gear but are used in places required. This game does not have elemental resists and is very well balanced because of stripping away these horizontal progressions. If added you will see demands for certain gear for specific content, and if you dont have it you will be left out, with good reason. You will also have even more inventory issues then you are having now, I see people saying they already use 4 retainers.

Adding horizontal progression to a game that is primarily vertical creates problems as well. You now have tons of false options just like our current stat allocations, there is a right and wrong way to do it, thats not a choice but more of a trick.

If they added horizontal progression to XIV I would rather have it entirely seperate from gear and make it into advanced skill trees where your choices and customization might actually matter. Keep in mind though the community will pick and choose favorite builds, and lazy players will just mimic it, once again creating a false choice.

I prefer XIV the way it is and when I crave horizontal gameplay I have plenty of games to do it in.

[Wizarus]

Horizontal with new content promoting meta shifts. Vertical is one of the main reasons why people not into crafting just unsub the moment they have top gear. Highest iIvl gear should be best in general not best in all situations.

[Reinha]

If they added horizontal progression to XIV I would rather have it entirely seperate from gear and make it into advanced skill trees where your choices and customization might actually matter.

I think a talent/attribute tree would be nice to have. This way raiding will stay just as accessible but you get extra customization. The talent tree should probably have no actual abilities to avoid getting too many of them, but instead bonus percentages to stats, procs, elemental attributes, regen and boosts to existing class abilities. The "tree" could be an extension of our current attribute point system: after spending some points during leveling on the low branches you could choose from new kind of bonuses at max level. The resetting of the tree could be done by a craftable item, for example a potion.

This kind of play style customization would probably please a lot more people than horizontal gear progression since no one has to start grinding extra gear sets.

[Aeyis]

This kind of play style customization would probably please a lot more people than horizontal gear progression since no one has to start grinding extra gear sets.

Extra gear sets has little to do with horizontal gear progression.

[Reinha]

Extra gear sets has little to do with horizontal gear progression.

Horizontal = multiple different kinds of gear sets with the same stat budget are available to player. They all have to have a use in some situation, otherwise you are not "progressing" your character when you gain those pieces and it simply becomes vertical progression (where everyone gets the most powerful set). The post following yours has a good example for tank sets, but I disagree with the conclusion that farming wouldn't be necessary (for non-casuals). 1st set can withstand the most damage so it's BiS on a boss that hits hard and drains healers, and 3rd can do the most damage so it's BiS on dps check bosses. You can't say they are equal in value in all content, when (for tank perspective) there is
1) speed running farm content
2) content that you can solo tank
3) hard hitting bosses that push you and healers to your limit
4) difficult dps checks that require maximum output from everyone.

People doing serious content are going to be so skilled that main difference between a wipe and a kill is not how they push their buttons. It's what they are wearing and the RNG in player and boss abilities. They are going to have to wear the best possible gear for each fight because the fights will be tuned with different sets in mind. If they weren't tuned that way, they would be too easy for people bringing the correct sets for each fight. And if the fight was equally difficult with any gear, the whole "horizontal progression" would be an illusion.

Gear doesn't change the core of our rotation so the "play-style" argument kind of baffles me. If you are going to hang on to the same gear set for play-style purposes, that's not progression either. It's just specializing your character to do one thing and progressing vertically when expansions hit. That's what classes are for tbh. Paladin for super tankyness, warrior for tanking with some dps, dragoon for dps and some emergency tanking and monk/ninja for pure dps.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Let me explain to you how good Horizontal Progression Works.

Ok, So you have about 3 sets per class-type.

Tank-Tank
Vitality
Parry (5%)
Extra Armor (5%)
Effect: Raises threat, small chance to ward yourself when attacked.

Tank-DPS
Vitality
Strength
Determination
Effect: Small chance to Lifetap when you attack.

DPS-DPS
Strength
Determination
Critical
Effect: Lowers threat as a tank-raises damage

The Tank DPS/Tank-Tank set have the same resists, and the

Bla bla bla

The sets have the same resistance, overall armor, health (besides the super DPS stuff). So you go after what your playstyle is.

You don't need to "farm sets" you go after the set that fits your play-style.

[SDaemon]

snip

How many times have you posted those images so far? I've already told you and explained that with what you are suggesting there will be players who will farm every piece of different gear pieces in order to swap them out based on encounters, because that is what will be encouraged.

Your idea that players can just choose gear which suits their play-style most and go with it is flawed. Players may certainly only choose to wear one set of gear, but they will be at a distinct disadvantage compared to those who use the system properly and swap their gear out.

[Synapse]

When they release equipment that "enhances Internal Release" people will use it for longer.

I hope for some Horizontal progression, This vertical progression is pretty dumb, its like a shiny new item every 3 months to keep the feeble minds craving in check.