716 quality synthesis!

[Amineri]

Copper : rank 1 to 10
Bronze : rank 11 to 20
Iron : rank 21 to 30
Steel + Darksteel : rank 31 to 40
Cobalt : rank 41 to 50

This is the current metal rank requirements pre-1.19. I can't really imagine them changing that because there's nothing really wrong with it.

Well, except that iron keeps popping up in item like that Iron Dolabra (rank 42), Iron Sabatons (rank 48). Steel is popping up in items like Steel Scythe (rank 47). So, the base synthesis like ingots are in that rank range, but the finished items aren't. And matching up ingredient synth ranks to finish item synth/optimal rank (in both directions) is something that I think is being done.

Also, copper isn't used as a base metal for making armor and swords in Eorzea, apparently it's only used as a precious metal for making jewelry and the like. The only BSM synth I can recall using copper were fishhooks, which are made of both base metals and precious metals.

Back on topic, regarding quality, I don't think people will be reaching 700+, or even 450+ quality when making cobalt ingots or cobalt plates, for these rank 48 cobalt sabatons (or other cobalt armors). They can hit that still making Bronze ingots, or maybe iron ingots, but those will only be used for low rank items, or at least that's my guess.

No more Iron and Tin Nuggets going into final synth of rank 47 ARM hammer, no more brass nuggets used in final synth of jade crook. I mean, seriously, where is the skill or challenge in that?

[darkstarpoet1]

Well, except that iron keeps popping up in item like that Iron Dolabra (rank 42), Iron Sabatons (rank 48). Steel is popping up in items like Steel Scythe (rank 47). So, the base synthesis like ingots are in that rank range, but the finished items aren't. And matching up ingredient synth ranks to finish item synth/optimal rank (in both directions) is something that I think is being done.

Also, copper isn't used as a base metal for making armor and swords in Eorzea, apparently it's only used as a precious metal for making jewelry and the like. The only BSM synth I can recall using copper were fishhooks, which are made of both base metals and precious metals.

Back on topic, regarding quality, I don't think people will be reaching 700+, or even 450+ quality when making cobalt ingots or cobalt plates, for these rank 48 cobalt sabatons (or other cobalt armors). They can hit that still making Bronze ingots, or maybe iron ingots, but those will only be used for low rank items, or at least that's my guess.

No more Iron and Tin Nuggets going into final synth of rank 47 ARM hammer, no more brass nuggets used in final synth of jade crook. I mean, seriously, where is the skill or challenge in that?

there is no more skill used to get a hq nugget or ingot then than there will be afterwards. i may be mistaken, but i do not believe it will be the case that they redo every item and remove all items that are lower rank from mid to high rank synths. from the recipe examples they posted they will just be using more generic forms of the materials in the synths and not completely redoing them all together.

[User201109011315]

there is no more skill used to get a hq nugget or ingot then than there will be afterwards. i may be mistaken, but i do not believe it will be the case that they redo every item and remove all items that are lower rank from mid to high rank synths. from the recipe examples they posted they will just be using more generic forms of the materials in the synths and not completely redoing them all together.

Indeed. There's no glory in just grinding out materials to get HQ materials and then being guaranteed an HQ finished item. A system like this favours crafters with the most time, not the most skill.

They needed to change HQ so as to reflect skill more. Making the system more inherently grindy and removing the skilful component just makes no sense.

We will still have to grind away HQ materials with a stupid HQ-probability system, but now there won't be the sense of achievement in getting the HQ finished product at the end of it all.

"Oh, you have an HQ sword? Congrats on boringly grinding all the mats with a stilll-broken HQ-probability system! Bravo, bravo..."

[Amineri]

there is no more skill used to get a hq nugget or ingot then than there will be afterwards.

This you cannot say with 100% assurance. You are more likely correct than not, I concede, but until the changes actually release we can only talk about likelihoods.

i may be mistaken, but i do not believe it will be the case that they redo every item and remove all items that are lower rank from mid to high rank synths. from the recipe examples they posted they will just be using more generic forms of the materials in the synths and not completely redoing them all together.

I'm not sure how you get "using more generic forms of the materials in the synths and not completely redoing them all together" from the example synths. All three example synths given use rank-appropriate recipes to make the ingredients for the final items. There will be more skill required to HQ a rank 45 ingot for a rank 48 item then to HQ a rank 5 ingot for a rank 48 item. Not much, but some. This is why I proposed keeping the "touch up" system, but using it for ingredients (post 1.20), as it will no longer be of any use for finished items under the proposed changes.

To be honest, the current system generates a lot more grinding on materials to generate HQ then it does final item synths. Opinions may differ, but I find the "touch up" system more engaging and rewarding then the "one shot" HQ method currently used for materials.

However, I think the point of our disagreement is this : I am absolutely NOT saying that SE will do this. I am saying that SE could do this. If SE were to do this, the proposed changes could turn into an accessible, yet interesting and challenging crafting system. Ultimately, the "fate of crafting" rests upon factors that have not yet been told to us. This means that the changes that have been released to us are not intrinsically good or bad, since they depend upon other factors.

It is good, I believe, to discuss the repercussions and consequence of the proposed HQ and recipe changes, since the forum mods do occasionally pull out ideas / feedback to give additional points of view to the dev team.

[darkstarpoet1]

This you cannot say with 100% assurance. You are more likely correct than not, I concede, but until the changes actually release we can only talk about likelihoods.

you're right i cannot say 100% certain that will be the same. i was just looking at the few examples they gave and was trying to look at how the recipes now are all similar so i would expect all the changes to remain similar.

I'm not sure how you get "using more generic forms of the materials in the synths and not completely redoing them all together" from the example synths. All three example synths given use rank-appropriate recipes to make the ingredients for the final items. There will be more skill required to HQ a rank 45 ingot for a rank 48 item then to HQ a rank 5 ingot for a rank 48 item. Not much, but some. This is why I proposed keeping the "touch up" system, but using it for ingredients (post 1.20), as it will no longer be of any use for finished items under the proposed changes.

for example the difference between hempen and cotton robes are nothing more than what cloth and yarn you use along with a higher level shoulder guard. we look at hempen and see they basically replaced the fronts, backs, and sleeves with just one bolt of cotton and one piece of yarn.

both of those parts are alot farther below the rank of the parts they produced. yes, cotton and yarn did make a r31 part for a piece of gear, but by looking at the other recipe changes we will likely be replacing that r31 part with a piece of r19 cloth. that was my logic at looking at the ease will be increased to hq the material. it will be easier to hq that r19 piece of cloth than it was to hq the r31 part that used it. that was what i was talking about by no change in how easy it was to hq the part itself.

take a look at that r50 cobalt sabaton recipe they released. the high level parts were removed and, yes, the cobalt ingot is a high level ingot. the problem is using that same type of conversion the r48 iron sabatons use mostly iron in them so those r50 greaves that are difficult to hq would be likely replaced with a r12 iron ingot. that was what i was looking at was not one single aspect, but the amount of total revisions that would be needed to redo every single item produced.

the change may work for some items and looks like a good change on like cobalt sabatons as it is a new added recipe, but the problem is the old system will be very difficult to go through every part and material in game and try to revise what rank weapon they belong to.

the reason i see a problem is take a look at the iron ingot as it is now.

http://ffxiv.yg.com/item/iron-ingot?id=10002012

the item itself is a r12 blacksmith or r23 armorer synth to make the ingot. it is used in 43 different synths and ranges from a r10 carp synth all the way up to a r50 blacksmith. the total changes would have to completely redo all of those synths that require an iron ingot and every synth that any item that was part of one of those synths to get all of those parts to all be within range of the finished products.

i do agree that the changes do depend on alot of other factors, but all we can do now is look at the only information we have been given and look at the overall changes. we can say we hope this or that happens, but at this point all we can go on it the only stuff that has been confirmed.

edit: btw i liked your post because i do not have a problem with an opposing opinion and i appreciate the time you have taken to actually put out different points of view and not attack personally instead. not to mention i have agreed with your adding touch ups to the parts since day 1.

[Amineri]

the change may work for some items and looks like a good change on like cobalt sabatons as it is a new added recipe, but the problem is the old system will be very difficult to go through every part and material in game and try to revise what rank weapon they belong to.

the item itself is a r12 blacksmith or r23 armorer synth to make the ingot. it is used in 43 different synths and ranges from a r10 carp synth all the way up to a r50 blacksmith. the total changes would have to completely redo all of those synths that require an iron ingot and every synth that any item that was part of one of those synths to get all of those parts to all be within range of the finished products.

You're quite right with the iron ingot being used in many recipes, and the degree of work needed to go through and "clean up" the recipe system to make the ingredients more appropriate to the final item rank. Even if they don't do this for some recipes, they definitely have to do so for some.

Here is the worst recipe that I've seen in the current system Thousand Needle Recipe. This gem is made from ONE monster-dropped item. It can drop off of cactuars as low as rank 20. The synth is rank 32, and yet it makes the highest level, r42 weaver tool. This is horribly broken now, and with the 1.20 patch would be magnified enormously. (I.e. Farm Needle +3, 100% HQ Thousand Needle, Done)

Whether be design or by accident (I'm guessing design), the initial recipes are being released BEFORE the changes to the HQ system. This gives a chance for feedback concerning the new recipes, as to which were missed, or need to be further modified for the upcoming HQ changes.

p.s. Thank you for the compliment . I do have my opinions, but know they're just opinions. I enjoy reading the forums sometimes, as they can be a great way to discuss things and see new aspects to systems that I didn't yet understand, or to point out possible flaws in systems released or planned to be released. If we all had the same point of view, life would be a lot less interesting!

[darkstarpoet1]

You're quite right with the iron ingot being used in many recipes, and the degree of work needed to go through and "clean up" the recipe system to make the ingredients more appropriate to the final item rank. Even if they don't do this for some recipes, they definitely have to do so for some.

Here is the worst recipe that I've seen in the current system Thousand Needle Recipe. This gem is made from ONE monster-dropped item. It can drop off of cactuars as low as rank 20. The synth is rank 32, and yet it makes the highest level, r42 weaver tool. This is horribly broken now, and with the 1.20 patch would be magnified enormously. (I.e. Farm Needle +3, 100% HQ Thousand Needle, Done)

Whether be design or by accident (I'm guessing design), the initial recipes are being released BEFORE the changes to the HQ system. This gives a chance for feedback concerning the new recipes, as to which were missed, or need to be further modified for the upcoming HQ changes.

p.s. Thank you for the compliment . I do have my opinions, but know they're just opinions. I enjoy reading the forums sometimes, as they can be a great way to discuss things and see new aspects to systems that I didn't yet understand, or to point out possible flaws in systems released or planned to be released. If we all had the same point of view, life would be a lot less interesting!

you're right about the thousand needle. it does drop off a cactuar, but i fought them for days under the current system and have yet to get my +3 needle made. i have gotten tons of drops, but i think that's where the old system will stop from having hq items flood the market.

the problem with giving feedback on the forums after the changes is the constant flame attacks that are given at the slightest negative feedback. unless the mods can take control of the forums then they will never be able to reign them in though. the "you suck at life", "quit the game if you don't like it", and "qq moar" type comments do nothing to make the forums a constructive place to give any feedback. that's the main reason most of the people i know refuse to come onto the forums. i mean they say we have 20000 people, give or take, that play the game still and we only have maybe 20 people that post on the forums daily.