Primary cause of T5 Divebomb failures

[DarkDedede]

I'm going to assume that the pit tactic isn't the original method of avoiding dive bombs. How were dive bombs avoided initially?

[Fynlar]

To be totally fair, the way Divebomb works in T5 is screwy, doesn't really allow you anywhere near enough time to react or dodge the way it was "intended" to (meaning, no cheesy Pit Maneuver), and will usually kill you for being hit, doesn't matter how well geared or Echoed you are.

The way the Red Dragon in Syrcus does his "divebomb" (called Cauterize in that dungeon) is something that's a lot more reasonable and can be planned around.

[Lemuria]

I personally just love how an exploit has basically become the only known tactic for beating it. I can't imagine the designers developing a system where you have to stand in a VERY specific place just to avoid death. Even with the worst content in the game you have a bit more leeway than that.

*Cue people telling me it's not an exploit*

Yes, yes it is. You're basically tricking the divebombs into coming at you from a specific angle so that you can avoid them as a group. The only reason this has persisted for so long is because it's basically the only tactic anyone actually knows and SE would have people screaming bloody murder if they patched it. If that's not a clear indication that the fight is poorly designed from the start, then there's no hope for humanity.

[SulwynCaliope]

Place a waymark in the pit, right against the outer edge, tell them to stack inside it. Works like a charm.

It doesn't actually. I tried teaching a friend T5 the other day and even with a waymark in the pit, none of them could figure out where to stand. I repeated SEVERAL TIMES for the ranged to not move out of the pit until they see the divebomb marker or hear the sound (with appropriate instructions to melee to restack just before second dbs would pop) and then to run out and back in when they do. If they magically managed to survive first divebombs, they'd end up spreading around and get smacked around by second set of DBs.

Waymarkers doesn't help people who are unwilling to even listen in the first place.

[randysquirrel]

Because every party has those geniuses with the same logic of "i'll be a few steps forward then it's less distance for me run to get out!". Half the party think they are the only one with this secret tech info and then one of them gets targeted and wipes everyone who actually tried to stack properly.

not that uncommon to see the same thing in t11. group stacks south of boss, with intent of running left when breaths go out, but "hey... i'll start edging round early... team won't notice, then i'll have less distance to dodge heh heh heeeeeee". Except then breath goes off at dodgy angle, tethered person panics and goes wrong way as it is much less distance

[Arkenne]

try sacrificing a waymark to indicate the right place in the pit?

[Souljacker]

No one would have needed this "cheese" method if we could zoom our cameras out to a decent distance and actually see the boss when she comes back down. This method was developed because it works consistently as long as everyone moves in sync and from the correct positions. Otherwise it's incredibly hard to predict her movements because 1. there's not enough time to manage the mechanic 2. you can't zoom out far enough to see the entire battlefield

I wish they'd made some different decisions about this one instead of just tossing more echo that players really didn't need (I mean who was hitting her enrage? Anyone?) but this is what they've done with it and in a few weeks it won't matter anymore.

[Itseotle]

It's because height elevation messes with AoEs. Most AoEs have a pretty limited vertical range. And as you can see for divebombs, it doesn't take much height difference to avoid getting hit.

This is not accurate. The way this strategy works the way it does is because of the pre-determined locations that twin can appear for the dive bombs, as well as the boss's facing angle. If everyone is stacked correctly, twin appears just slightly in front of the group, targets a player for Divebombs, but since everyone is between Twintania and the wall, Twin faces the wall and dives out of bounds. When you run out of the pit to dodge, you are basically moving out in the time that the target has been selected, the Divebomb direction has been set, and you move before Divebomb is actually cast. If someone is not "behind" the spawn point of Twin, and is the target of Divebombs, then Twin will still spawn at the same location but face towards the arena and Divebomb in that direction. In this case, "dodging" it by running out of the pit will still put you in line of fire, which is why the group gets hit, and there push back angle is based on the angle between the character hit box and the Divebomb AoE line, which many times pushes players into the wall.

Chimera's another example of how it's used; it's why everyone pulls Chimera to the tree on top of the hill, so that ranged people don't have to worry about Dragon's Voice, and then you only have to worry about silencing Ram's Voice to keep melees safe (although most players nowadays only know the hill part, and don't silence Ram's Voice).

Another strategy that I wish would just stop. Pushing Chimera into the corner of the map severely limits the space you have to dodge both the (I forget the attack names) Homing Orb, the rear cleave, the frontal cleave that is more than 180°, and the Ground AOEs. If you play a melee, you'll notice that Chimera tends to stand still and cast 2-3 abilities in a queue, which if he's surrounded by crap on the floor, means DPS down time, or more complicated heals. Also, Dragon's Voice hits in a doughnut shaped circle, meaning you can easily dodge it by being in melee, but since most casters prefer not to do that, you can also dodge it by being at max casting range. Which IMO is a much better, and safer, strategy. Plus you don't have to wait forever for the tank to actually get him out of the cave, you can just pull the bastard and stab him in the eye.

No, the problem is that it's pretty damn hard to even SEE your hitbox with everyone crammed on that little space, and the margin for error is little.

What I do is get right against the wall a meter or 2 outside the group, then strafe into the group. Or just run in before everyone else :P

EDIT: I guess another way to look at it as player's dont have Hit Boxes but instead Central Hit Points, ie. the point in the exact center of your targeting ring. This is really easy to observe with large monsters, where you can dance around there central point and still get positional attack requirements off, and still be able to "see" the target as well. Five-Headed dragon and Cerberus are good examples. I often do Ifrit EX where I can stand inside Ifrit and still attack the nails in front of his face without getting hit by his breath.

Been there.
Provided that the party is even open to the idea of trying the intended method in the first place, poor situational and/or directional awareness still often causes people to eat dives.

T13 dives work the same exact way as T5 dives if you think about it. The only difference is that there is a marker to tell you when the "Diver" has descended, but you could still dodge T5 DB's the same way as T13 with a little awareness.

[CGMidlander]

It could be easier if you weren't trying to cheese it with the pit way.

Been there.
Provided that the party is even open to the idea of trying the intended method in the first place, poor situational and/or directional awareness still often causes people to eat dives.

try sacrificing a waymark to indicate the right place in the pit?

You'll still meet people who hang out around the waymark, rather than on.

[Divine_Intervention]

It doesn't actually. I tried teaching a friend T5 the other day and even with a waymark in the pit, none of them could figure out where to stand. I repeated SEVERAL TIMES for the ranged to not move out of the pit until they see the divebomb marker or hear the sound (with appropriate instructions to melee to restack just before second dbs would pop) and then to run out and back in when they do. If they magically managed to survive first divebombs, they'd end up spreading around and get smacked around by second set of DBs.

Waymarkers doesn't help people who are unwilling to even listen in the first place.

Your issue in this case then isn't that the method doesn't work, it's that the group is unwilling to do the method properly. It works, i promise you.
As far as awareness of the mechanic goes. You have focus target on twin, you have a beeping sound, and you have the green marker above your heads. All in all plenty of options.