Wait a minute...is this a plot-hole (Austerities of Wind and Main Scenario-related)?

[Anonymoose]

Elder Primals are Primals that have been summoned since multiple Astral Eras without being vainquished.

We've since gotten confirmation that the underlined part isn't actually very important. The primary distinction between Primal and Elder Primal is the sheer number of years that have passed since mass-worship began (even if its since evaporated).

Koji: Basically it’s all a matter of length of worship. With primals, it’s all about how you have someone worshiping you and you become that primal and they believe in you and you get your power from that. For the Ixal or the Amalj’aa, it’s the belief that makes the aether combine to summon forth these primals—so when you look at Ifrit, and Titan, and the one’s we’re calling primals, they’re considered very young. They’ve been believing in them for a long time, but looked at in a span of all the eras it’s not that much time. <...>

Anwyll: <...> [So,] it’s just has to do with the length of time.

Koji: Basic length of time.

For instance, Belias was forgotten pretty much entirely since twilight of the Third Astral Era (as far as we know) and memory of him was re-awoken from a summoner job crystal and passed to Tristan by an Ascian - and there Belias was called Elder. There are, of course, hints that the Ascian manipulated Tristan quite a bit and never told him the whole story. The power of Darkness takes root in him throughout the storyline until he's basically just using Dark Aether Ifrit-Egi (assuming that's not what Belias is in the first place, of course) and Dark Aether Starstorm.

Kinda makes me wonder - if we didn't (presumably) put Tristain down, would he have opened himself up to the Darkness more and more, drunk on its power, until he simply died? Or could he have ended up a black-mask one day? But I digress.

[WyrahFhurrst]

I suspect Ramuh may have memories that aren't his own. The memories he has may simply come from the aetherstream, like inherited memories from the element he represents. I hope we get an explanation on that eventually, because he's not an Elder Primal, but has those memories. Very odd guy, that Ramuh.

[Anonymoose]

I suspect Ramuh may have memories that aren't his own.

I was midway through posting the last thing I said in here when this popped up and I just wanted to poke back in already and say "I'm glad I'm not so crazy as to be the only one." I believe that Ramuh may (might, possibly, potentially, hypothetically) have memories that were imbued into him.

All of the primals have personalities that philosophically represent their element. What is lightning? Patient... calm... silent... and then strikes without warning with merciless dexterity to swiftly annihilate that which is judged to be its target. Lighting is calculating. Lightning is wise. There's a possibility that Ramuh knows many things by nature of the living aether that he was not personally there to witness.

Or, perhaps he was once a living person and read a lot of books about the past and now the soul orb thing we saw in the Striking Tree remembers college pretty well, hells if I know. But he's no Elder, as far as we've been told. That's for sure.

[WyrahFhurrst]

*snippet*

Oh good, I'm not the only one. The only guess I have as to why the other Primals don't mention their older memories is that they don't have them, or they just don't find them important to bring up around us. Both are entirely logical, at least for the elemental Primals. But what about the non-elemental Primals? Does Good King Moggle Mog have older memories, or only the recent ones? And does that lack of elemental memory explain why he's different from the elemental ones? I of course mean his lack of trying to temper us or gather a following beyond his loyal Mog Squad. Perhaps, as a new Primal, he has yet to fully come into his own and discover all of his powers, since he has no element (and older {rimals of that element) to inherit memories from?

[lololink]

That story about elder primals is really weird, if what matters is how long they have been worshipped how come we can consider Odin an elder primal while we don't even know who worshipped him and for how long ?

The only way I could consider Ramuh not being an elder primal would be that while he was here in the first eras he might not have been summon since very recently ( Same way for Mog ). And still we clearly see Titan and Ifrit coming out of the burst of aether and it's only after that the ascians tells them how to summon primals. Unless ascians planned this all along but they don't seem to be the kind of guy to make long plans, they wait for opportunities to weaken Hydaelyn and jump on it whenever it happens, just the same way Nabriales thought he saw an opening and failed.

All primals weren't prevented from being summoned by the seal since one was summoned in Othard, so what was it exactly, that primal matter really need answers... I hope the library of Sharlaya will give us some.


About the elemental behavior I'm not sure, I usually depict lightning as fast and can't stand still, the complete opposite of Ramuh in a way.

[WyrahFhurrst]

That story about elder primals is really weird, if what matters is how long they have been worshipped how come we can consider Odin an elder primal while we don't even know who worshipped him and for how long ?

We may not know who did the worshipping (if there was any worshipping, Odin's a weird Primal overall), but we do know he, like Bahamut, had his origins in or before the Third Astral Era, as he was sealed in the crystal at Urth's Font by the Allagan hero, Urth (no more info on who that is besides that).

[Kaiser-Ace]

Unless ascians planned this all along but they don't seem to be the kind of guy to make long plans, they wait for opportunities to weaken Hydaelyn and jump on it whenever it happens, just the same way Nabriales thought he saw an opening and failed.

Uh, the Ascians have been at this since the Third Astral Era and maybe even earlier. One does not simply mess around for 15k+ years and not have a long term goal in mind. The Ascians plan is thousands of years in the making which is what makes it so hard to grasp and escape. As Eldibeus said, if we knew what he did perhaps we'd be able to see eye to eye.

Oh and Nebriales failed because he went off script. Ya know, went rouge, awol, etc, etc. He wasn't following the plan that's been laid out so well and worked on for so long that none can escape it's momentum. So he payed the price for being a maverick. To which Lahabrea was neither surprised nor upset about and Eldibeus was only mildly concerned that we were able to kill the unkillable. But even then it seemed trivial to him and more of a curiosity than a threat or worry.

[Anonymoose]

One does not simply mess around for 15k+ years and not have a long term goal in mind. <...> Oh and Nebriales failed because he went off script.

The millenia in the making Ascian agenda doesn't seem very specific (so far). Chaos - Rejoining - Zodiark. That's not a plan, that's a goal. It's more like guidelines, really. Their manipulation is intricate, don't get me wrong, but they tend to just show up and exploit pre-existing tension until discord erupts into chaos. The closest thing to forethought we've seen is Lahabrea hiding the Heart of Sabik in the Ultima Weapon, and we now know that Lahabrea cannot be 100% trusted to be on Team Ascian Council in the first place. Not only is he working closely with Elidibus (who claims not to technically be our enemy and, unlike the others, just wants this planet back on the "right track," the same sentiment expressed by Lahabrea in the Praetorium), but he's so obsessed with primals and merging their power with man that even Elidibus thinks its overshadowing his loyalty to Zodiark.

I'm very suspicious of this whole "put the world back on the right path" thing, too. Only the two suspected Ascian rogues (Lahabrea / Elidibus) have made that claim. Nabriales only spoke of wanting to return everything to perfect Darkness, and that doesn't sound like what Elidibus and Lahabrea had in mind (unless, of course, we're just being manipulated again. Because ... Ascians.) I suspect plans within plans, schemes within schemes. You ever notice that every time an Ascian says anything other than, "Hey, Lahabrea's right!" he steps in and redirects the conversation towards what is obviously the best course of action?

[Bfmusashi]

I don't recall the time period for the Summoners original existence, but it was likely while the ability to summon the primals was sealed at Silvertear Falls. I think this is the only seal you can put on them, that they can't be properly summoned, but their calmer, smaller representatives can. So, having the big manifestation trapped and locked in the Ultima Weapon/Silvertear Falls doesn't seem to keep the less willful versions from manifesting.

[WyrahFhurrst]

I don't recall the time period for the Summoners original existence, but it was likely while the ability to summon the primals was sealed at Silvertear Falls. I think this is the only seal you can put on them, that they can't be properly summoned, but their calmer, smaller representatives can. So, having the big manifestation trapped and locked in the Ultima Weapon/Silvertear Falls doesn't seem to keep the less willful versions from manifesting.

Summoners were created by the Allagans, so the Third Astral Era. And I'm not sure there ever was a "seal" on the Falls, just that when the Agrius exploded it released a great amount of aether into the world. Without enough aether to summon a primal, no Egi would have been summoned, because one must defeat a primal in the first place in order to summon an Egi.