Wait a minute...is this a plot-hole (Austerities of Wind and Main Scenario-related)?

[Kaiser-Ace]

Err It could be possible to summon a primal alone and not dying, it would just be super weak because so few aether was used.

Um, thats what an egi is in a nut shell.

[lololink]

Um, thats what an egi is in a nut shell.

Not really, an Egi doesn't have the soul of the Primal, if we could just summon Primals as Egi there couldn't be two of the same egi and beastmen wouldn't be able to summon them again since they are already summoned by the player.

[WyrahFhurrst]

Not really, an Egi doesn't have the soul of the Primal, if we could just summon Primals as Egi there couldn't be two of the same egi and beastmen wouldn't be able to summon them again since they are already summoned by the player.

Well, it does have the soul of the primal. The soul of the primal kind of brushes on you when you kill it and you take that little bit that clung to you, pump some more aether into it, and you control it in this new form known as an Egi.

The Crystal is a Conduit FOR the Aether, Louisoux didn't use either the allagain or ascian methods, he used the symbols of the twelve as the focusing conduites for mass prayer. How ever him turning into Phoenix was not the original idea it was a last resort back up plan that he literally came up with on the spot.

The definition of conduit does not imply Crystals are anything but what they are. We've used them as Conduite BECAUSE they are crystallized Aether. Thus making them a perfect conduit for focusing the unharnessed aethir of various sources.

You don't need a conduit for aether. You are doing the focusing and controlling. Louisoix did use the conventional summoning method of gathering a whole bunch of aether and a whole lot of prayer to make a joint primal of the twelve. The aether came from the large number of people fighting and adding to the ambient aether in the Field of Carteneau, and the prayer at the various stones of the twelve. The crystals don't channel aether, they are condensed aether by themselves, that's why they're consumed by primals who want to gain power, because while a Primal ambiently consumes the ambient aether of their element (or unaspected aether in a the case of Bahamut, Odin, Good King Moogle Mog, and presumable Ravana), a crystal (being condensed aether) is much more potent than just sitting around sucking up whatever's floating around. That's the reason why we put down Primals in the first place, because they consume ambient aether which upsets the balance.

[Kaiser-Ace]

perhaps you'd care to explain the purpose of the Primal Aetherites in each of the Beast Tribe strong holds is for then? Because that's the linchpin to my crystal conduit theory.

[WyrahFhurrst]

As any aetherite is for, the aetherites in the Beast Tribe strongholds are a specific type of crystal that directs the flow of aether between two points, connecting them as a sort of direct gateway. People themselves can attune to aetherites to teleport between locations. The aetherites are not in and of themselves important to the existence of a primal, but instead simply connect to a secure location where the Primal is summoned, presumably because the great stores of crystals are there for the summoning and they don't want them stolen, or that the spot itself is holy to the Beast Tribe in some way. I believe Moenbryda gave the explanation during the Shiva questline as to their importance. It had a lot to do with the rivers of aether in the world and that without an aetherite acting as an anchor, one could simply dissipate in the flow of aether.

[Kaiser-Ace]

snip.

Ah I see now. So the Aetherytes go to the areas the summoning occurs in then. The Bowel of Embers, Howling Eye, Ahk Amphitheater, etc

Alright then, so that still leaves the question on how one aetheric construct is considered a primal and another isn't. Seems like my basic theory has been off on the wrong track this whole time. Though I will insist common elements are definite like the risks involved with solo summoning, it seems it's time to review and rework. And to think this was my grand thesis on primals too. T_T

[WyrahFhurrst]

Alright then, so that still leaves the question on how one aetheric construct is considered a primal and another isn't. Seems like my basic theory has been off on the wrong track this whole time. Though I will insist common elements are definite like the risks involved with solo summoning, it seems it's time to review and rework. And to think this was my grand thesis on primals too.

It's only called an Egi to reference the fact that it's smaller than the full primal, and under the Summoner's control. And you're very likely correct about the solo summoning, at least as we are now Summoners would have no hope summoning a full primal without perhaps the full power of a limit break (and then it's still questionable). So don't lose hope! And keep working on your theory, it has its merits. The idea of differentiating the summoning methods is good, but it's important that those who can poke holes do, so that the theory can be more elaborative and precise.

[lololink]

Well, it does have the soul of the primal. The soul of the primal kind of brushes on you when you kill it and you take that little bit that clung to you, pump some more aether into it, and you control it in this new form known as an Egi.

It's not their soul, it's their aether, when you kill a primal the soul go backs to the aetherial plane while the aether goes back to the earth and all living being, that aether is, like most aether, aspected, aether can change it's "frequency" it can be fire, earth, wind etc... When you defeat a primal you receive some of their aspected aether, it has the "frequency" or "DNA" of the Primal, that's why you can summon egis of them, but you don't trap the soul of the Primal. Egis aren't primal, they are soulless.

[Alberel]

Not really, an Egi doesn't have the soul of the Primal, if we could just summon Primals as Egi there couldn't be two of the same egi and beastmen wouldn't be able to summon them again since they are already summoned by the player.

We don't actually have conclusive proof that a primal cannot be summoned multiple times at once... If we take the whole concept of King Moggle Mog for example, since he is just a myth made manifest through belief there had to be some point that he was simply created from nothing. There was no 'soul' in the aetherial stream to summon. To be honest we don't even know if the primals have persistent souls and memories between summonings. If Garuda were summoned by a group of Ixal, and then another group of Ixal tried to summon Garuda in a different location, unaware that others had summoned her, there is nothing in the lore so far to suggest they would be unable to do so.

The reason we can control the egis is because we only draw on a small amount of the primal's aether. It is the concentration of aether that gives the primal its personality as evidenced by the fact that garuda was noted to become more and more sadistically destructive each time she was summoned with more crystals. By summoning an egi with a far smaller amount of aether we stop their personality from becoming strong enough to escape our control. This is why we have to defeat the egi the first time we summon it, so as to learn how to dominate it and bend it to our will. The fact it turns on us that first time is proof enough that even the egis do have some degree of awareness.

There is no sudden point at which a primal switches from egi to full primal. It's more of a sliding scale. The more aether is used to summon it the more distinct an appearance it takes on and the stronger its will and personality. This is why the egis look like they're made from crystal; because they are just condensed elemental aether like aspected elemental crystals but there isn't enough of that aether to take on a complex form. A summoner would not be able to summon a full primal because a single summoner would not be able to control it; it would turn on them straight away assuming they had enough aether on hand to summon one that strong. The egi is the limit of what we can control at present because the mind of the egi is just barely weak enough for us to dominate.

[lololink]

We don't actually have conclusive proof that a primal cannot be summoned multiple times at once... If we take the whole concept of King Moggle Mog for example, since he is just a myth made manifest through belief there had to be some point that he was simply created from nothing. There was no 'soul' in the aetherial stream to summon. To be honest we don't even know if the primals have persistent souls and memories between summonings. If Garuda were summoned by a group of Ixal, and then another group of Ixal tried to summon Garuda in a different location, unaware that others had summoned her, there is nothing in the lore so far to suggest they would be unable to do so.

Ultima Weapon traps the primals and prevents them from being summoned again.

Same goes for the seal from mor dhona and Dalamud trapping Bahamut, all Allagan techs were aimed so that primals couldn't be summoned again.