Will WHM be getting a new trait to replace ProShell?

[Cynfael]

Well, there's one "casual" encounter where healers can't naturally reach the accuracy cap: Shiva Extreme. And you can only get remotely close by capping your accuracy on a zodiac/zeta weapon. With just dreadwyrm/ironworks you're a good 70 points of accuracy under cap.

Good point; forgot about Shiva EX. I guess we'll see what happens.

[Yhximott]

snip

You really shouldn't bring an unpredictable variable like player proficiency into a numerical evaluation. Maybe I should have used simpler units like X and X+1, instead of numbers. If there is no variable in potency or proficiency and shit just happens, then the +1 is lost to WHM and it is not lost to a SCH. Case closed.

That aside, I agree that it's not that imbalanced. I never said it was that imbalanced. But only a fool would consider one not to be the better of the two. One is better and it's SCH, even if by a small margin.

And we are already talking about what's going to happen in the expac (i.e. the point of this thread), and how the current system is going to affect it/be affected by it. If you agree with me, then why are we arguing?

[Ghishlain]

If you agree with me, then why are we arguing?

It's actually more of just a reaction to people saying SCH is better than WHM for "something" as there have been many posts in this vein that have cropped up in the last month or two on these forum and cause nothing more than drama. You're actually probably one of two posters recently in the "And this is why SCH is better" posts that's actually been thoughtful about it. Most of the other posters who make the same claim just fire off some random inane and silly comment and when heavily refuted make no attempt to defend their position but keep claiming the same thing over and over again like if they say it enough, it'll mean something to someone (I can think of three posters who are like this without even trying).

It's become so popular (and polarizing) lately that's it's a pretty much a heated discussion on these forums for all the wrong reasons. It's important to have the discussion because it allows us as players to determine just what the flaws of each healer class/job is and make educated suggestions on how to change it. However, when it becomes a cesspool of just random ranting and name calling, it undermines any semblance of real discussion.

Unfortunately, it's hard to distinguish the thoughtful from the mess at times due to the nature of the internet.

[Yhximott]

wisdom

Ah, so it's a sore spot. I didn't mean to spark flame.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

You really shouldn't bring an unpredictable variable like player proficiency into a numerical evaluation. Maybe I should have used simpler units like X and X+1, instead of numbers. If there is no variable in potency or proficiency and shit just happens, then the +1 is lost to WHM and it is not lost to a SCH. Case closed.

I believe you're the one who brought "player proficiency" into things first: Overhealing. Overhealing isn't something the class does, it's what the player does. In your examples of "where you heal for 2000 points whereas only 1000 was needed" was an example where the player decided to use an overly powerful spell for said circumstances. If it was an example where Cure would be used over Cure II and would still overheal, this problem still applies to Scholar as Cure and Physick have the same potency.

As for this:

And we are already talking about what's going to happen in the expac (i.e. the point of this thread), and how the current system is going to affect it/be affected by it. If you agree with me, then why are we arguing?

You said the following:

The aren't "stronger" they're just in possession of a particularly marketable skill. WHM, realistically speaking, is the weaker of the two by a wide margin (poor raid dps, accuracy, overhealing). The fact is, they're taking something from WHM that makes it valuable, and they need to replace it with something that makes it equally valuable. Otherwise people will get WHM to lvl 16, or 34 for stoneskin, and then trash it in favor of the more versatile/useful healers.

Weaker of the two implies you're talking about Scholar and White Mage, meaning Astrologian wasn't even considered when you wrote that. And what you consider "valuable" for White Mage is something I do not agree on. At least, not on the ground where you think that makes White Mage "valuable" as where Scholar is "better".

Lastly:

That aside, I agree that it's not that imbalanced. I never said it was that imbalanced. But only a fool would consider one not to be the better of the two. One is better and it's SCH, even if by a small margin.

WHM, realistically speaking, is the weaker of the two by a wide margin (poor raid dps, accuracy, overhealing).

So what is it?

[Yhximott]

I believe you're the one who brought "player proficiency" into things first. *same numbers even after you explained it so a child could understand*

The actual number means nothing. The point is if the SCH goes over by 1 or 1 million it doesn't all go to waste unlike the WHM.

Weaker of the two implies you're talking about Scholar and White Mage, meaning Astrologian wasn't even considered when you wrote that.

WHM is marketable now because it has the only M-DEF passive. There's a place for WHM and a place for SCH. AST is not mentioned because IT DOESN'T EXIST IN OUR CONTENT YET. As such, data cannot be collected on it. Only WHM and SCH can be evaluated, and their weaknesses identified. WHM has more weaknesses, so it needs valuable skills to make up for them.

So what is it?

Weaker by a margin wide enough to put it's viability into question, especially if they're exacerbated in the expac. It has 3 marks against it and 1 mark (proshell) for it. 3/1. That a +150% margin that happens to be made up of small numbers.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

The actual number means nothing. The point is if the SCH goes over by 1 or 1 million it doesn't all go to waste unlike the WHM.

This highly varies on context. If you apply a galvanized on someone who would never fully benefit from it, it's just as bad as overhealing. It's not like you can compare Adloquium with more direct healing spells either: While a scholar may choose to cast Adloquium on someone with full health, it makes absolutely no sense for a white mage to cast Cure (II) on that same person. Just as you don't normally spam Succor to top entire groups off.

WHM is marketable now because it has the only M-DEF passive. There's a place for WHM and a place for SCH. AST is not mentioned because IT DOESN'T EXIST IN OUR CONTENT YET. As such, data cannot be collected on it. Only WHM and SCH can be evaluated, and their weaknesses identified. WHM has more weaknesses, so it needs valuable skills to make up for them.

That's your opinion. In a previous post I've mentioned otherwise.
As for it "needs more valuable skills to make up", they do get some: more damage abilities. So this draws back to the mechanic problem: Accuracy - which I've been re-addressing over and over.

Weaker by a margin wide enough to put it's viability into question, especially if they're exacerbated in the expac.

And exactly what makes it weaker by a margin? Poor raid DPS as you mentioned? Accuracy? Overhealing?

Overhealing isn't a class fault, if you decide to use Cure II when a Cure would suffice, that's the player's fault - again
Accuracy is a problem because the cap cannot be achieved naturally and actually applies to both healers, even if Scholars suffer less from it as how the game handles some spells - again
White Mage's individual damage isn't necessarily worse than a Scholar's, accuracy is the bigger concern here - again and I'm pointing back at how Square-Enix decides to "patch" this with more damage options which won't solve anything if the accuracy issue isn't addressed in HW.

[Yhximott]

snip

The whole, true point of this thread is that they're taking something that makes WHM unique and parsing it out among everyone. They aren't doing that to any other Job (to our knowledge) and as a WHM I find that to be unfair, especially considering the existing differences. Do you want WHM to be compensated for this or not? I do.

The person I initially responded to, which had nothing to do with you, seemed to be under the impression that WHM was "stronger" and that this is a well deserved nerf, which I don't agree with, because I think that WHM is the weaker of the two existing healers.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

The whole, true point of this thread is that they're taking something that makes WHM unique and parsing it out among everyone. They aren't doing that to any other Job (to our knowledge) and as a WHM I find that to be unfair, especially considering the existing differences. Do you want WHM to be compensated for this or not? I do.

The person I initially responded to, which had nothing to do with you, seemed to be under the impression that WHM was "stronger" and that this is a well deserved nerf, which I don't agree with, because I think that WHM is the weaker of the two existing healers.

The only thing I'd like to have addressed would the accuracy issue. Square-Enix concluded something and decided to give White Mage more damage options. But as long accuracy is a problem, nothing will change for White Mage while Scholar get similar additions to address their "weaknesses".

As for your whole assumption what I'm trying to convey or who you're responding to. The topic started with:

In the live letter, they mentioned that the magic defense for Protect that conjurers get will be added to all healing classes when using protect... they seemed to kind of brush off the fact that this is a lvl 16 conjurer trait though... so will they be replacing it? Otherwise it's a pretty worthless trait, and it's not like they're giving everyone access to Super Virus.

I'm kind of worried as well as I was really hoping WHM would get some help in the mana regen department and it seems that was overlooked too T_T

On page 4 you responded to this post:

The whole point of making everyone get proshell is precisely so you aren't forced to run a WHM for buffs - why would they make it so that WHM get something to just make it stronger, again?

with this:

The aren't "stronger" they're just in possession of a particularly marketable skill. WHM, realistically speaking, is the weaker of the two by a wide margin (poor raid dps, accuracy, overhealing). The fact is, they're taking something from WHM that makes it valuable, and they need to replace it with something that makes it equally valuable. Otherwise people will get WHM to lvl 16, or 34 for stoneskin, and then trash it in favor of the more versatile/useful healers.

Which has nothing to do "with the true point of this thread", but ok. Before your response I responded to the same post with:

Well, you're in the wrong here. You're not forced to bring a White Mage. It just makes healing easier/mistakes more forgivable. Much like how no group is forced to bring a monk for FCOB Turn 4, it does make healing easier/forgivable. You could in fact do the very same turn without a scholar, like how it can be done without a white mage. But having either presence just makes it easier. Same applies to:
Bringing...
...bards
...monks
...warriors
...casters
...scholars/summoners for virus
...ranged classes in general*

But there are some problems with Square-Enix's logic that it's for "balance". I'm not saying it's wrong, but merely incomplete.

* No sane group would bring 4 melees (6 with tanks) to, for example, BCOB T5 or FCOB T1. But it's doable, however.

I also responded to your post, as I find your post filled with misinformation, with:

None of those things are really a class issue, more of a mechanic thing.
"poor raid DPS" - While not exactly the high, it's not poor either.
"accuracy" - This is more on Square-Enix's mechanic design:
1) For some reason Bio, Bio II and Shadowflare requires no accuracy, but a giant explosion of light can actually miss while you're right on top
2) Accuracy isn't readily available bar some very minor numbers on every piece. Unless resorting to crafted gear, neither healer can reach the accuracy cap for the harder content. But this applies to both healers. Scholars simply don't need accuracy to deal decent damage - They'll want it to deal good damage, though.
"overhealing" - And this is more of a player's fault, rather than the class fault. Overhealing will always be there. Be it on Scholar or on White Mage. It's higher on Scholar in some cases, where the scholar's the type that shields everything before impact.

Which you find your argument faulty about "the White Mage class is only marketable because":

because it has the only M-DEF passive.

And in an earlier post I mentioned it's not, while also arguing with the "faults" you personally find in White Mage - Don't bring player proficiency into this, remember?
I don't think White Mage is stronger, but I don't believe Scholar is overly dominant either. Or as you call it "by a wide margin". The issue itself does not lie with the class itself the very least. If we were to forget about the proshell trait for now, White Mage is getting:
A Regen field with unknown potency
A half-benediction with, supposedly, shorter cooldown
An AoE attack that heals simultaniously
Stone III and Aero III with unknown potency - They also mentioned something about another ranged DoT in the live letter as well as in the translated topic

The regen field would offset the difference between the current Regen and Embrace - Whether it's viable in practice is another story
An additional instant healing ability could fill in that large GCD gap Benediction has in comparison with Lustrate. Actual CD time unknown
New "main damage spells" (as by live letter) while the Scholar got none.

White Mages are getting new abilities in both fields: Healing as well as damage
Scholar are getting new abilities that would assist in the actual healing role.

Even if you were talking about the situation for White Mage after Heavensward, you're not conveying the right message. As I've repeatedly mentioned before: It's not the class fault. But you don't seem to understand that.

[Yhximott]

So you don't think WHM should be compensated. Got it.