Another Upset Summoner

[Kuponutz]

As has been said, without a variety of pets to SUMMON why bother having a SUMMONER class at all? Yes the trance sounds like it has potential but it very well be yet another case where they hype an ability and give it a kick ass name then we get it and does not live up to the hype. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned BLU and they nailed it. A summoner with no pets is a glorified blue mage. For those unfamiliar a blue mage learns abilities from enemies and is able to use those abilities against mobs. Which is EXACTLY what trance sounds like. Don't get me wrong I am happy to have trance but I am very guarded about it because it would just be one more over-promised, under-delivered disappointment to add to the list.

I honestly don't care one bit about the glamours, what is the point in having garuda look like carby, titan > ifrit? It's pointless.

To those saying it would be too much work on behalf of the dev team to come up with new egis and redo the way they look I ask if you ever played XI? XI is 13 years old. At launch there were a base 7 avatars, Garuda, Ifrit, Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, Carby and Fenrir (correct me if I am wrong on this). Later on they added Odin, Alexander, and Diabolos. On top of these you also had the elemental spirits you could summon (who remembers the glory of protect from Light Spirit Pact?) that I will discuss below. These summons we're some scaled down version that look nothing like the actually avatar they looked like the real deal. So, if SE had no problem being able to it with the technology they had 13 years ago (and had to be able to run on PS2) there is no reason why they should be unable to do it now. There was also no end of abilities to choose from. You had a long varied list of ability options. Each ability used mp - as did having the pet out - and each attack served a purpose. Control of you pet and management of abilities was the key to SMN, unlike in XIV where we have a pet and every so often we command it to do ONE move. I don't remember the exact timeline but at some point they split the abilities (Blood Pacts) to attack and ward. Attack being dealing damage, ward being granting a beneficial buff for party. There were of course cool downs for them and all relied on the summoner having mana. They also varied in strength based on summoning magic skill level, some couldn't be used unless your skill level was over a certain amount. If your smn skill lvl was low your pet wasn't going to even dent it. But like the EW we don't have magic skill levels either.

As for the elements that's an issue I agree on. 1.0 had the Elemental Wheel but when redesigning the game for ARR they decided the EW was too complicated for the average player. Most players have been using EW across a lot of games for an extended period of time. Even if someone had never played a game that had it before it really isn't that hard to figure out that water beats fire etc. Granted for SE to give us back the EW would be a nightmare since they gave half the elemental attacks to WHM leaving not a whole lot to work with for BLM and SMN. The aforementioned spirit summons are of zero use in XIV because of the lack EW so don't tell me they can't be utilized because I am very aware that they would be a waste of time without massive adjustments being made.

TLDR: SE lied, if they can do it in XI they can do it in XIV, fix the Elemental Wheel situation (not holding my breath)

[Zhamkyong]

If they can do it in XI they can do it in XIV, fix the Elemental Wheel situation (not holding my breath)

Its not about the Elemental Wheel. This is not FFXI, thats the problem.

FFXI SMN has a lore, a story and a purpose, and so it has the SMN in the FFXIV. The action in the game its too fast, to frenetic to have something similar to the Primals of FFXI in this game. The ideas behind them are too diferent to achieve something equal between them.

[SoloWingMetatron]

Its not about the Elemental Wheel. This is not FFXI, thats the problem.

Actually the fact there is no elemental wheel is entirely the problem why it is not so simple to implement new Egi play styles and give them all an equal reason to be used. The only reason it worked in XI was coz there was a proper elemental wheel that dictated what element was strong/weak against another, giving the SMN a reason to use all the Avatars. However in ARR there is no proper elemental wheel, yet each Primal/Egi still belongs to a particular element.

In ARR's current state it would be near impossible for SMN to get an Egi of every Primal and for it to have it's own unique uses (there is only so many types of pet play styles). So the only real options going forward are to introduce a proper Elemental Wheel so each Egi is strong/weak to a particular element. This of course would break BLM and force SE to rework it (never going to happen) Or they could just go with the Egi glamour option and work on the 3 Egi types (Ranged/Tank/Melee) which is actually way more efficient and cuts down development time without effecting BLM and allows new Egi to be released with a new Primal, as SMN will no longer have to wait for level cap increases for them to be released as they are just technical glamours.

[Tayolynn]

I posted on the other RIP Summoner thread that I was upset about not having new egi's, but now that this new approach of Ahk Morn with Bahamut Trance and what other's have said, I'm starting to see the other perspective in a better light. Who knows, the Bahamut Trance may evolve from Ahk Morn to Megaflare as we get stronger. This could give leeway in the future for other trances/signature moves of summons, with Shiva's Diamond Dust, Levi's Tsunami, etc. without being restricted to melee, ranged, and tank roles for egi's.

And it also holds true to the summoner role, as how summons were carried out in the classic FF series, where they do one strong signature attack, and that's it. Egi skins would be okay too, just to keep the FFXIV summoner utility, but this new direction can open good opportunities as well.

[Zhamkyong]

Actually the fact there is no elemental wheel is entirely the problem...

If they add the elemental wheel they must rework not only the Egi, also the BLM (Fire and Ice mechanic) and theyr actions. And i would add the WHM on the list, too. (Stone and Aero). They would need to do a complete rework to the game. Also, if they add actions to each elemental Egi like in the FFXI, they would need to add buffs to the whole party on them to cast. (Like stoneskin in Titan, for example).

Again, the changes they talked about the Trance implies more dept in the Summoner on FFXIV lore, like it or not. Also, they stated on working to add new actions on the existing Egis to make them more viable.

I'd like to point out aside from the glorious age of blinding tanks with Akh Morn coming they DID say they are giving more skills to pets so there may be incentive to use more than just Ruda....

^Exactly that.

[SoloWingMetatron]

If they add the elemental wheel they must rework not only the Egi, also the BLM (Fire and Ice mechanic) and theyr actions.

Clearly you did not read my post as I said BLM would have to be reworked....that is precisely why I also said an elemental wheel will probably never happen as a result and yes WHM would also need a rework. Which just goes to show my point that the Egi glamours are probably the best and most efficient way development wise to bring us more Egi. Furthermore I am perfectly happy with the Bahamut Trance ability, I think it's awesome but it isn't going to replace the Egi or mean that the Egi will be removed. The Egi will still exist for abilities such as Enkindle as well as added DPS if nothing else.

[Kuponutz]

If they add the elemental wheel they must rework not only the Egi, also the BLM (Fire and Ice mechanic) and theyr actions. And i would add the WHM on the list, too. (Stone and Aero). They would need to do a complete rework to the game. Also, if they add actions to each elemental Egi like in the FFXI, they would need to add buffs to the whole party on them to cast. (Like stoneskin in Titan, for example).

Did you even read what I and Solo wrote?

[Tilgung]

XI and XIV are very different games. The only similarity they have as far as game play is concerned is the ability to change jobs, something every other MMO lacks.

They are absolutely different in every other aspect. If you can't deal with that, and that every jobs game play has to be tuned around how this game is designed to be played, you might as well as give up on SMN.

And pretending SMN in XI was some golden experience. A watered down White Mage with very occasional spike damage that any other damage dealer could put out, with significantly higher frequency, be it via Ancient Magic or Weapon Skills.

[gorezilla1]

Hey Kupo. It's Milt. How've you been?

All pleasantries aside, I must admit I'm extremely saddened by the fact that we don't get more egis. But In truth, I one of the few smns I know that continually rotates his pets during raid. Knowing that every pet has it's strenghts would mean trying to get all 4 pets (not counting titan) equal use. This would be a nightmare. The only ways to do this would be to give us something along the lines of a quick pet swap. Now if for some reason, 1 pet remains supreme, there'd be 0 reasons to use the rest. As such, we'd just be in the same situation. 4 pets but only using one. The same way in 2.0-2.2 there was almost no reason to use ifrit. I'm all for using the power of the more primals, but I prefer the new route. We literally channel the the power of the dreadwyrm. If instead of having random egis we'll never use, we can channel the power of more primals, I prefer that. True, the name SUmmoner alludes to something quite different, but This could be a very healthy compromise... I think. Also, we haven't seen all the new skills. Blm got so much love because it's Yoshi's class. Don't give up just yet. If you think I'm wrong, just remember 1 thing: most people would rather have contagion as a smn ability, rather than tied to Garuda. This is because most people don't care what egi they use.

[Zhamkyong]

True, the name SUmmoner alludes to something quite different.

Summoners in the series of FF games used to call the primals to do a variety of attacks and buffs, they were not pets until... FFX? Where Yuna called them as another super-team member? This aproach of the Dreadwyrm Trance remind me of those times.

And i like that.