Another Upset Summoner

[Dyvid]

Flaming Crush is 3y what ever he's hitting will at least get hit by it, but why cant you simply have him attacking the mob in the middle of the group? Even if he wasn't. Lets just look at the single target damage.

Three mobs not lined up in any particular way. Garuda 30 second cd is her only AoE attack at 90 potency.

Well lets be realistic though, 3 mobs was before everyone learned about speed runs. We are talking a minimum of 6 to 9 mobs to AoE. Normally the tank is moving around alot to dodge AoE so the middle mob soon becomes the back mobs and vice versa. Give garuda a try on your next speed run and you might be surprised on how smoothly it goes, but you have to use aerial blast or shes useless as speed run pet.

[Havenchild]

Well lets be realistic though, 3 mobs was before everyone learned about speed runs. We are talking a minimum of 6 to 9 mobs to AoE. Normally the tank is moving around alot to dodge AoE so the middle mob soon becomes the back mobs and vice versa. Give garuda a try on your next speed run and you might be surprised on how smoothly it goes, but you have to use aerial blast or shes useless as speed run pet.

I don't get it. Why are you ok with assuming Garuda's AoE is going to hit 6-9mobs but Ifrit's can't?

Using your own example about how the middle mob moves to the back, why would the one Garudas targeting be immune to it? Hers would hit fewer targets as well. If you were to then say well you can click another mob and use Aerial slash on the new mob, why is Ifrit incapable of retargetting a new mob and using his AoE?

My point is, it's hardly a difference maker. You can play both of them to their benefits and correctly, and Garuda barely edges ahead but its all on Contagions benefit.

[Trespar]

Magical potency =/= physical potency.

Ifrit will consistently deal less damage with his abilities than Garuda.(he pulls ahead in single target through basic attacks, but only slightly)
The main exception being enkindle, which is magical potency for all three pets.

Here's a picture of my combat log comparing Aerial Slash with Flaming Crush.
http://imgur.com/edykLCN

You can argue damage variance, but let's be honest, there's no amount of damage variance that allows a 90 potency attack to deal that much more damage than a 110 potency attack.

[Dyvid]

I don't get it. Why are you ok with assuming Garuda's AoE is going to hit 6-9mobs but Ifrit's can't?

Aerial Slash has a 5y radius, Flaming Crush has 3y. Garuda has a larger kill box.

[Havenchild]

Aerial Slash has a 5y radius, Flaming Crush has 3y. Garuda has a larger kill box.

You see that add to the bottom right of the tank word bubble? Can easily click obey on that and flaming crush all of those, with pretty much minimal movement, not enough to miss a GCD and worth the cost because it would do 20 more damage per mob over Garudas.

Also I like how the picture is skewed a bit to not appropriately reflect an actual mob clump. Usually every mob would gather on the tank unless casting some ability. Also unless you are targeting the invisible mob in the middle where Ifrit would be located, the center of your circle could not possibly be located on Ifrit this is also entirely assuming, the mob Garuda is targetting automatically is somehow in the middle. You would eventually have to refocus her to even attempt to properly display what your picture is showing to aim that Aerial Slash.

[SoloWingMetatron]

I think ultimately if Dyvid's idea was going to work without much balancing issues, it would need to be simplified down. Maybe each Egi could each get an attack that adds a single status effect debuff.

Shiva - Freeze
Ramuh - Paralyze
Leviathan - Silence
Titan - Petrify
Ifrit - Heavy
Garuda - Confuse

Even then though I'm not sure this really gives the SMN enough of a reason to actively use each Egi. Some people will always just use the Egi's that they find most aesthetically pleasing, not caring about added status effect debuffs or an extra bit of DPS. Some players are more casual in their play style (choosing to only use Sic for example) which is fair enough, but they also need to be accommodated. SE probably made the right call with the glamour system and choosing to focus on building up the Ranged, Tank, and Melee Egi types. Any other method will either cause an unnecessary balancing issue, or just be small, simple changes (like status effects) that make negligible difference to the Egi's overall.

What would definitely be useful though is more healing spells for SMN to use exclusively on the Egi. After a while Sustain just doesn't cut it, especially in Keeper of the Lake. Or maybe if Egi's were added to the party bar for all to see then the healer could keep them up.

Actually the lack of decent healing abilities to keep the Egi alive kinda makes the whole emergency tank Titan idea fall apart. Even if Titan were to get a proper provoke his HP will still start to fall very quickly once he gains hate, which Sustain/Physick would not be able to counter that well. Therefore Titan would either die rather quickly, or SMN would have to sacrifice DPS in order to focus on healing Titan and would still likely fail in a proper emergency situation.

[ShinryuReishiki]

Garuda : 3 x 90 is 270 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 = 670. Let's say we give her the benefit of the doubt and say she gets an additional attack when she casts Aerial slash for a total of 770 (which doesn't necessarily happen because Wind Blade has a cast time).
Ifrit: (120+ 1x110) + 120 + 120 + 120+ 120 + 5 AAs = 710 (Not factoring in the AA damage) In 5 - 6 GCDs, he's already surpassed Garuda in overall damage if his AoE hits only one mob.

You can't compare the two by potency. Ifrit's physical attacks all hit for ~70% the damage per potency that the SMN/Garuda's magical attacks hit for. Burning Strike + Auto is 180 potency (120 + 60), but its actual damage would be on par with a 126 potency magical attack. Adjusted, Flaming Crush would be about 77 potency to Aerial Slash's 90.

[pandabearcat]

Oops I thought the point of this thread was how SE screwed SMN by not providing more egis and now we need to stick it to the man.

[Havenchild]

You can't compare the two by potency. Ifrit's physical attacks all hit for ~70% the damage per potency that the SMN/Garuda's magical attacks hit for. Burning Strike + Auto is 180 potency (120 + 60), but its actual damage would be on par with a 126 potency magical attack. Adjusted, Flaming Crush would be about 77 potency to Aerial Slash's 90.

This is why I say were talking about an ability that has a heavy CD. Even if you were to factor in the magic defence vs phys defense, still doesn't lead Garuda to beating Ifrit unless my math is completely wrong.

Let's use your calc but instead factor in AAs

Garuda: Garuda : 3 x 90 is 270 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 = 670
Ifrit: 126 + (1 (mob) x 77) + 126 + 126 +126 +126 = 706

I'm even giving you the benefit that Ifrit is only hitting 1 mob with his AoE while Garuda is hitting at least 3 with hers.

If we assume Garuda is ,let's just say able to get an additional attack in the same time frame, she winds up at 770. Ifrit beats that in 3 more GCDs. If he hits more then 1 mob with flaming crush? overtakes her completely with her hitting 3 by default.

Correct me if my math is wrong somewhere.

[Kuponutz]

All this boils down to at the end of the day is people selfishly bitching that their needs/wants were not met first....but what about other peoples needs/wants. SE has confirmed they are addressing both so we will ultimately get both.

The problem with this statement is that we're not insisting on getting anything first. Black Mage became their priority in 2.2/2.3. 2.4 saw ninja and seriously screwed SMN up by putting spell speed on every piece of gear. We are over a year out from the time Yoshi said we would get new egis (Tokyo FATE 2014). I really don't see how this could possibly be us being greedy and demanding we get our things first. We've been last on the list for more than a year and we finally got tired of being stomped on, but heaven forbid after a year we ask where our promised fixes are.