RIP Ninja

[silentwindfr]

seriously at equal stuff, on one target, you can't beat the enmity generate by a tank...
even with undergear tank, you need to clearly be over equiped for take the hate of a tank. the only case where the tank can have a trouble (and mostly the paladin) is while the multi tanking. where the ninja is not really exelent AoE is clearly not our forte.

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

i did play a looot tank and any tank can say that for now this skill will not be needed, it's a band aid for bad tank or really undergear tank that prioritize them armor over them weapon, leading them to be short on hate.

i did still do a test early with a friend as a tank, a paladin one! against a dps, i did leave him start the fight and without use taunt did take back the hate quite easily. this skill is an unneeded skill that will have a low utility.

ps: you try to to defend them choice, when it's not possible to say what they did bring us is equal to what the other did receive... we are not talking of a patch adding skill, but an expansion, that add 10 more level... we are the only jobs don't freaking changing outside having positional added to our skill! all the other jobs did get more possibility, we are the only one that did receive no change and only did get more limitation.... for no valid reason and the skill gained have little utility or.... are under mined by the fact that they miss a large part of what it was needed for make them really interesting. i'm talking there of the skill that will refresh Huton, it will be amazing if we had receive more ninjutsu to be added to our cycle, instead we do get to do more of the skill earn previously...

[SDaemon]

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

[Viridiana]

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

I can wait just fine. You're ignoring that if I have the option to burst without causing aggro issues, that's preferable to not doing dps and not causing aggro issues. Just because you want to ignore a valid use doesn't mean it isn't a valid use.

[Houston009]

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

I enjoy reading your post a lot, they are always such great laughs, and for that I thank you.

[silentwindfr]

ok a skill at use at the start of the fight.... for gain 2 second of fight... yeah indeed it was needed to add this for our expansion skillset... true!

please look what the other get in comparaison please. you are simply trying to defend SE too much! you ignoring 2 point:
1) it's simply a transfert of your enmity already created (from the description we did get).... then use it at the start of the fight is as intelligent than pull with the taunt if you can use shield lobs.
2) the CD, if it's a 2-3 minute CD, like most of the enmity reset, then it will be used only for a few fight...

but the point is more, even now, i have barely meet any situation where a tank, exept really bad one or really undergear one, was having trouble to tank over me. outside multiple target tanking. you are ignoring the fact that since the start i'm saying that this skill is too situational for be really usefull. if you look at every other jobs, they did offer them mechanic and skill that can be used inside them cycle... we are the only one getting stuff that have a limited impact even if some can be insanely good...

but what bother more, it's why our main tool, what define ninja, what we did earn from become ninja.... the ninjutsu was ignored with this expansion, why no new ninjutsu skill added outside the capacity to spam more raiton. it's nice to try to say that ninja did get stuff, it's better to admit that this skill gain with heavenward, so far, are underwhelming and look like added swiftly without any concern about our particularity or main tool.

for me Kage-watari, is not enough for pardon them inability to offer us a decent expansion experience as ninja player, you can try all you want to defend SE and them decision... but if you look at the big picture.... we did receive the shorthand of the stick.

ps: i hate this expression, but i'm tired of the white knight defending any decision of SE... when soo far, did they give us any good reason for them decision concerning the ninja? outside:
- did come out recently then don't need a lot of change.... Expansion = change and add of possibility for the class/jobs, in any mmorpg.
- the tank are the one that fight head on, the ninja need positional... the jobs wasn't designed for it! why add this now after more of 6 month? it was possible to add it with the 2.5 if that was really a concern! and more important why igtnore the part of the community that did decide to play this jobs because of the lack of positional?

[Viridiana]

ok a skill at use at the start of the fight.... for gain 2 second of fight... yeah indeed it was needed to add this for our expansion skillset... true!

Is one use. I can list more. In fact, I have listed more.

please look what the other get in comparaison please. you are simply trying to defend SE too much! you ignoring 2 point:
1) it's simply a transfert of your enmity already created (from the description we did get).... then use it at the start of the fight is as intelligent than pull with the taunt if you can use shield lobs.
2) the CD, if it's a 2-3 minute CD, like most of the enmity reset, then it will be used only for a few fight...

1) We don't really have full confirmation of that yet. Even if it does stay the same, there are situations where it can help.
2)Yes, I'm not saying it will be hugely beneficial. I'm saying it has its uses. You think the MNK ability that costs all of their GL is going to be useful more than once every few minutes? I don't see MNK complaining about that. Situational abilities are not a problem.

but the point is more, even now, i have barely meet any situation where a tank, exept really bad one or really undergear one, was having trouble to tank over me. outside multiple target tanking. you are ignoring the fact that since the start i'm saying that this skill is too situational for be really usefull. if you look at every other jobs, they did offer them mechanic and skill that can be used inside them cycle... we are the only one getting stuff that have a limited impact even if some can be insanely good...

Yep, and Raise is too situational, too. Guess we should get rid of it.

but what bother more, it's why our main tool, what define ninja, what we did earn from become ninja.... the ninjutsu was ignored with this expansion, why no new ninjutsu skill added outside the capacity to spam more raiton. it's nice to try to say that ninja did get stuff, it's better to admit that this skill gain with heavenward, so far, are underwhelming and look like added swiftly without any concern about our particularity or main tool.

I agree. I would have loved to get new ninjutsu. I mean, the ability to hit more Raiton/Fuma is nice, but I too would have liked to get something legitimately new. I do like some of the stuff we got in its place, but not having new ninjutsu is a legitimate downside. That's not a reason to downplay what we are getting, though.

ps: i hate this expression, but i'm tired of the white knight defending any decision of SE... when soo far, did they give us any good reason for them decision concerning the ninja?

I agree that the positionals are meh (waiting to see how bad it is). I also agree that not getting new ninjutsu is bleh. But I think that getting huton extensions, enmity management, and an ability that lets a weaponskill triple-attack are some nice abilities. They're not game changers like the other classes are getting, but I'm okay with that. I'm not blindly defending them. I've expressed in a number of threads, including this one, aspects of the changes I'm not thrilled with. But in each of these cases, I feel that waiting until we have concrete information is the wiser choice.

[silentwindfr]

snips

i don't say that this skill is bad, i'm saying that it impact is not good enough for be added like a big feature of the ninja with an expansion. like i did said, it's something that was able to be added with a patch, not an expansion.

about the fact that Monk get a new attack for burn the GL, i feel it can be interesting, especially if used correctly with the royal road of the astrologian and perfect balance... with the correct setup, the damage output earn from it will be insane. an example of setup that will recquire teamplay. (recquiring 1 astrologian, 1 ninja and 1 monk)
- First the astrologian prepare him Royal Road and get it with balance for the next draw (ok quite lucky but still), it will increase the effect of balance: +10% of damage. royal road can (depending of the card used before for boost the next draw) increase of +150% the potency of a card, increasing the damage of the target for 15-20 second of 25%
- the ninja get ready to use TA and increase the damage on the target of 10%
- the monk use the Tornado Kick (Tornado Kick - 500 potency attack that consumes 3 stacks of Greased Lightning. 60 Second Cooldown. (Off global cooldown)
) after receiving Royal Road Balance, and use perfect balance, allowing him to get back the 3 stack quite fast and return to a full burst of damage...

indeed it's a quite heavy setup and recquire luck and teamwork. but well executed, it will be devastating.

and it's one of the few use you can do with this skill. actually, if it get the damage boost from GL, it's far stronger than any attack of the game.

on other hand we did receive... i have said it before, we don't really have any synergy born from this expansion and skillset. saying that we did receive the shorthand of the stick is not a joke. it's only one of the few example of synergy born from the mechanic and gameplay added with this expansion.

even issou and musou sandan are nice, they are not representing the ninja... they mostly weaponskill... the rogue part of our gameplay. one another point Musou Sandan and issous seems to be used simply for increase easily our dps and give us huge burst. without really add mechanic that will bring something fresh and interesting. it's like a 1 button skill that will let you deal tons of damage!

it's the same about the skill for refresh Huton, why add it? if they don't give use more ninjutsu mechanic for use it with it? it's another weird way to increase our dps without add gameplay mechanic outside make us use one more skill in combo.
finally Kage-Watari, on paper it's nice add, but, i feel it's weird to add it to us. it's like try to give use an utility, for make us interesting... but, don't this skill will have been better on jobs like machinist or bard?

don't get me wrong, i don't feel that we will lacking dps, but we will lack new experience in term of gameplay, this new skill will be used, but do they will really add anything new and interesting to our jobs? do they have any logic behind it?

because soo far every add i have seen for the other jobs had a logic behind it. but when i read the skill of the ninja... i'm lost, they do'nt bring synergi, they don't offer new mechanic, they feel...weird and underwhelming, like hastly added without any concern behind what this will bring to us.

it's not later that we must say it, it's now, for they begin to think about it... because later it will be too late.

ps: i had to go check one more time what do musou sandan/issou, and i was wrong ^^

[Pluvia]

So correct me if I'm wrong we're not just getting one aggro modifying move but 2. Here is the article http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...11#post6433711
overall the Huton extender will be a decent QoL increase but the only really amazing and i mean amazing thing is the action that allows a weaponskill to hit 3 times. Overall HW can't come fast enough.

Also would of been cool if they would of put the new weaponskill off of shadowfang to make it a 3 step combo. instead of off gust slash but either way I like the look of the attack.

[silentwindfr]

from what i read it's the try to make us a support melee.... what bother me a looot!

Ninja was a job that was added later on, and at first glance it looks like there is no significant change to the basics of their battle capabilities.

this part anger me anyway...

[Viridiana]

i don't say that this skill is bad, i'm saying that it impact is not good enough for be added like a big feature of the ninja with an expansion. like i did said, it's something that was able to be added with a patch, not an expansion.

You keep saying it's useless. A useless ability is a bad ability. A niche ability is not a bad ability, as long as the niche is somewhat common.

about the fact that Monk get a new attack for burn the GL, i feel it can be interesting, especially if used correctly with the royal road of the astrologian and perfect balance...

So, your niche use requires a party that has 3 classes in it, with some RNG, and with multiple long CDs. Mine requires very little setup. I'm not saying yours can't happen, but damn that's a lot of setup. Versus, say, smacking something a few times and transfering your enmity before you steal hate.

on other hand we did receive... i have said it before, we don't really have any synergy born from this expansion and skillset.

Right, because enmity transfer abilities are totally not synergy.

one another point Musou Sandan, is not a 3 hit attack, it's a skill added at the third position of a combo. it's flashy but exept if it dps is really high...

Not what it says here: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...vent-5-18-5-21

i means Aeolian Edge is already a powerfull attack at 320 potency, what will be the role of Musou Sandan? why add another skill that seems to have the same function than Aeolian Edge?

Except Musou Sandan, from the information I see, makes the WS go three times. Which is a boost of 640 potency if AE stays our most powerful WS.

what the goal of Issou? boost our weaponskill damage? but why? i means wasn't it better to offer us new mechanic tie to the ninjutsu? i means it's only a weird way to increase our damage without really add new gameplay mechanic.

Dunno, not really any info on it. A basic DPS CD is still nice, though I concede that it's not a game-changer.

it's the same about the skill for refresh Huton, why add it? if they don't give use more ninjutsu mechanic for use it with it? it's another weird way to increase our dps without add gameplay mechanic outside make us use one more skill in combo.

I mean, it does mean we get to use more damaging ninjutsu, and it means when they add in new ninjutsu (which I'm sure they eventually will) we'll get to use them often. The way it was currently set up, 3 ninjutsu a minute means they don't have room to add in new ninjutsu. Any new ninjutsu (unless tied to a 2 min or longer CD) would have to replace either Raiton (which is powerful), Suiton (which is even more powerful), or Huton (so powerful it's not going to happen). But, if they give us a mechanic to extend Huton, that means we can eventually get a second 1-minute ninjutsu to pair with Suiton. This means we can eventually have more options, which is good. Could they have done it all at once? Yes. But that doesn't mean the groundwork is bad.

finally Kage-Watari, on paper it's nice add, but, i feel it's weird to add it to us. it's like try to give use an utility, for make us interesting... but, don't this skill will have been better on jobs like machinist or bard?

Honestly, I don't think any DPS class should be without some ability to manipulate aggro or at least aggro generation. BRD, BLM, SMN (even if they don't need it at all, really), and DRG all have ways to manage their own aggro even if the tank is absolutely atrocious. Do they always need it? No. Do they always use it when they should? No. But I would have put this ability on the initial release of NIN and MNK. I wouldn't have waited until the expansion to put it on NIN, and I would certainly have put it on MNK by now (even though MNK has a slower ramp up).

don't get me wrong, i don't feel that we will lacking dps, but we will lack new experience in term of gameplay, this new skill will be used, but do they will really add anything new and interesting to our jobs? do they have any logic behind it?

Honestly, I don't particularly like the vast swings of meta involved in adding game-changing abilities at certain levels. To use BRD as an example, BRD after Wanderer's Minuet will be a fundamentally different job than before WM. If WM is a level 60 skill, that means every single non-60 instance will have BRDs playing fundamentally differently than they do at 60. That's not fun (imo), that's frustrating. I'm more happy to get nice toys to play with every few levels that give me more tools to use.