RIP Ninja

[Pluvia]

Because people just want to complain and cry about stuff, they conveniently ignore that the ability to refresh Huton via skills lets you use Raiton more often and only requires you to use a single 3-step Ninjutsu, so you don't have to cut into your GCD as often.

Honestly I just want them to change something with ninjutsu sure not having to recast Huton more often will be a dps increase to anyone with near perfect latency for the fact they will get more Raiton in but those who have latency issues have to cast fuma shuriken. and it will only give them more shuriken casts since Raiton Cuts too much into the GCD while yes its a dps increase still for them its majorly less so. It exacerbates the issue between people will great latency and people who get bad mudra lag. Where as with monk/dragoon its not as big of an issue if you're a good player since you're not trying to fit 3 .5s skills into a gcd.

I can fit Raiton into the GCD so while its not an issue for me it is a issue for a lot of people

[Viridiana]

and it will only give them more shuriken casts since Raiton Cuts too much into the GCD while yes its a dps increase still for them its majorly less so.

At my current gear levels, an extra Raiton every minute (if I could fit it into the GCD, which I can't really) would be something like an extra 15 dps. An extra Fuma Shuriken, on the other hand, would be about 12 dps. I'm not sure why you think this would be "majorly less" dps.

[Pluvia]

blah blah blah early morning non coffee math and testing can see the stupid mistakes in quotes below lol

[silentwindfr]

snips

yeah as the time pass, the difference of damage between raiton and fuma will increase. indeed fuma is less problematic at use... but the loose on long fight can't be ignored.

same with the futur positional, we can ignore it and probably deal a decent dps without following it. but that will be the difference between a good and a bad player. in high level raid, people don't allows this sort of difference, when 10 dps can means not reach the dps cap needed before the enrage.

[Pluvia]

yeah as the time pass, the difference of damage between raiton and fuma will increase. indeed fuma is less problematic at use... but the loose on long fight can't be ignored.

same with the futur positional, we can ignore it and probably deal a decent dps without following it. but that will be the difference between a good and a bad player. in high level raid, people don't allows this sort of difference, when 10 dps can means not reach the dps cap needed before the enrage.

There is a difference between positionals which don't suffer for any major lag problems and then there is ninjutsu which is knows to have lag issues.

[Viridiana]

Should of said for ninjutsu damage and not overall damage to look at the overall damage outlook
At my gear level Raiton is about 30-40 of my dps depending the amount of crits including the use of foes.
Lets just take a simplistic look at fuma and raiton. in a 3min situation.
My minimum hit for fuma is around 600 (lowest i saw was 585) with the slashing debuff non crit raiton's minimum is around 800 non crit all of these are without party buff

so lets look at this in the most simplistic in a vacuum look
5 casts of either raiton or fuma
4k damage for raiton 800 each
3k for fuma using 600 each with slashing debuff.
so about at 25% loss of ninjutsu damage.

so lets just take my lowest number for raiton dps if raiton brings 30 dps fuma brings about 22.5 dps which will only get worse come expansion.
obviously this is speculation since we have no info

Lets say we never have to recast Huton. in 3 min that adds another 3 fuma/raiton

again 800 for raiton so about 7200 damage
again 600 for fuma so about 4800 damage
a difference of about 33% in ninjutsu damage.

Once again none of the above numbers were using foes or any buffs at all.

A number of problems with this. One, if you're getting minimum 800 damage on a Raiton with no buffs, then just having poison up means you shoud be getting 600 minimum on Fuma even without the slashing debuff. My Fuma will never fall below 600 damage with no buffs up other than poisons, with my minimum unbuffed Raiton being about 756 (Raiton being unaffected by poisons or DE). If your minimum Raiton is 44 above mine, you should never be seeing 585 Fuma Shurikens. So the base difference is less than the 25% you're saying it is, unless all of your Raiton casts are somehow getting Foe Requiem. There should only be about a 12% difference before accounting for Foe.

Second, in your last paragraph you compare 9 Raiton casts (7,200 damage is 9x800) against 8 Fuma casts (8x600 is 4,800). Correcting for this, it should be 6,400 vs 4,800. 4,800 is 75% of 6,400, which is the same (exaggerated) 25% you got in the first paragraph. Which makes sense, because the % change isn't going to change as you keep going.

Now, if you factor in DE, FR, and Venoms, you have about 316.8 Fuma potency vs 396 Raiton potency. That's a .8:1 ratio. So you should lose about 20% of your Ninjutsu dps if you have Foe Requiem up for every Raiton cast. Every cast that you don't have it up for moves it closer to the 12% I mentioned in my first paragraph, and Battle Voice will shift it slightly back towards the 20%.

But we're talking about probably ~17% loss on what's currently, according to your numbers, 30 DPS. So, a 5 DPS loss at current gear levels (maybe 6 or so because I doubt either of us are BIS). Even if our DPS from Ninjutsu quadruples in HW, that'd be about 20-24 DPS lost out of probably over 1k DPS. So, a 2% loss of total DPS? That's not huge.

[Pluvia]

A number of problems with this. One, if you're getting minimum 800 damage on a Raiton with no buffs, then just having poison up means you shoud be getting 600 minimum on Fuma even without the slashing debuff. My Fuma will never fall below 600 damage with no buffs up other than poisons, with my minimum unbuffed Raiton being about 756 (Raiton being unaffected by poisons or DE). If your minimum Raiton is 44 above mine, you should never be seeing 585 Fuma Shurikens. So the base difference is less than the 25% you're saying it is, unless all of your Raiton casts are somehow getting Foe Requiem. There should only be about a 12% difference before accounting for Foe.

Second, in your last paragraph you compare 9 Raiton casts (7,200 damage is 9x800) against 8 Fuma casts (8x600 is 4,800). Correcting for this, it should be 6,400 vs 4,800. 4,800 is 75% of 6,400, which is the same (exaggerated) 25% you got in the first paragraph. Which makes sense, because the % change isn't going to change as you keep going.

Now, if you factor in DE, FR, and Venoms, you have about 316.8 Fuma potency vs 396 Raiton potency. That's a .8:1 ratio. So you should lose about 20% of your Ninjutsu dps if you have Foe Requiem up for every Raiton cast. Every cast that you don't have it up for moves it closer to the 12% I mentioned in my first paragraph, and Battle Voice will shift it slightly back towards the 20%.

But we're talking about probably ~17% loss on what's currently, according to your numbers, 30 DPS. So, a 5 DPS loss at current gear levels (maybe 6 or so because I doubt either of us are BIS). Even if our DPS from Ninjutsu quadruples in HW, that'd be about 20-24 DPS lost out of probably over 1k DPS. So, a 2% loss of total DPS? That's not huge.

you're correct in the fact i added in an extra Raiton fixed did a hasty job and extra work for nothing LOL I sat on the dummy getting for 10min spamming ninjutsu 585 was the lowest hit i got for fuma which i assumed could of been from the slashing debuff falling off right as fuma hit the dummy. Edit:Nope just tested it again 15sec on slashing hit a 582 fuma on the dummy just now
Too early in the morning for math.

[Viridiana]

you're correct in the fact i added in an extra Raiton fixed did a hasty job and extra work for nothing LOL I sat on the dummy getting for 10min spamming ninjutsu 585 was the lowest hit i got for fuma which i assumed could of been from the slashing debuff falling off right as fuma hit the dummy. Edit:Nope just tested it again 15sec on slashing hit a 582 fuma on the dummy just now

Ten minutes is nowhere near enough time on a dummy to establish damage ranges for two separate ninjutsu, unless you get extremely lucky with hitting min/max early.

If you're getting 582 Fuma Shuriken, then your minimum Fuma Shuriken is at least 24 below mine. Which means your minimum Raiton should be below mine, as well (because that's how math works). So your minimum Raiton would have to be in the 720 range. That, or you aren't using venoms.

Edit: In fact, a 582 Fuma with DE up means that you're 24 damage below what I can do without using DE.

[Pluvia]

Ten minutes is nowhere near enough time on a dummy to establish damage ranges for two separate ninjutsu, unless you get extremely lucky with hitting min/max early.

If you're getting 582 Fuma Shuriken, then your minimum Fuma Shuriken is at least 24 below mine. Which means your minimum Raiton should be below mine, as well (because that's how math works). So your minimum Raiton would have to be in the 720 range. That, or you aren't using venoms.

Edit: In fact, a 582 Fuma with DE up means that you're 24 damage below what I can do without using DE.

I could sit here all day I'm telling you right now 802 is raitons min my highest non crit is 871.