RIP Ninja

[Ryans]

While MNK and DRG seem to get all new, interesting mechanics that sound like a huge boost in strength, Ninja gets the ability to decrease enmity of a target. Whoopdeedoo. In what kind of content has enmity ever been a real problem? And if it becomes a problem in Heavensward, how is lowering the enmity of a single target going to solve it?

NIN is starting to sound like a babysitter class.

Ninja was designed with heavensward in mind. It makes sense that they wouldn't get any big game changing abilities because of how different they already were at release. Ninja was fleshed out from its creation.

[Destomius]

All I want is them to fix Mudra lag

[Adire]

If it weren't for the mudra lag, I'd be okay with it completely. I thought it might be cool in Heavensward to go through some of the dangerous areas with hide, but it sounds like we'll be able to fly over most things anyway. Eh, I'm conflicted. Mudrag lag and positionals just doesn't sit well with me.

I'd be more okay with it if they increased the DPS to accurately reflect the difficulty. NIN being monk with mudras sounds harder to play than just monk.

[melflomil]

I could care less about the positionals, I'm more upset that we get pretty much nothing. Sure not having to recast huton is nice, but all that gives us is an extra raiton, woooo much damage. We get no shiny buff ability that lets us go awesome mode. I am trying to figure out how our damage will go up to meet these others who get all these cool buffs that strengthen their rotation.

The aggro skill is pretty meh, if the tanks are doing bad this won't help much. Nin won't even get to play with it outside party's so it sits rusting along with goad for solo play.

They didn't show off all moves. Only some. They didn't explain what the skills in the demo were

[Kiroh]

I'd be more okay with it if they increased the DPS to accurately reflect the difficulty. NIN being monk with mudras sounds harder to play than just monk.

Exactly, it's essentially DRGs jumps and MNKs positional skills combined into one class with a dash of built in lag.

And I have serious doubts that NIN will best them both in DPS even with the changes coming that might very well make it the hardest DPS class to play.

Honestly I have doubts NIN will even match either of them with Mudras and positionals and debuffs and (if they make the skills necessary in HW) hate management, AND tp management. It's actually more like BRD, MNK and DRG mixed into one class with a dash of built in lag...

[Adire]

Exactly, it's essentially DRGs jumps and MNKs positional skills combined into one class with a dash of built in lag.

And I have serious doubts that NIN will best them both in DPS even with the changes coming that might very well make it the hardest DPS class to play.

I will miss the diversity :/. I will now call Ninja "Monkja"

[Allyrion]

I've always felt that when I sneak up to a mob from behind, I should have some kind of assasinate type move to initiate.
We should start from a rear positional with something flashy, since that would really fit for NIN.
It actually feels weird that you just start with your normal combo.

I think Rear positionals obviously makes sense for NIN.
Flank can be justified since it just shows your attacking from multiple angles, anime-esque.

I've said this before, but I think the fact that positionals add a third dimension to your rotation really cool.
I rerolled NIN because Mudras were interesting, but I missed the positionals honestly.
The Monk rotation is simpler imo, since the only complication is positionals. The debuffs, dots and buffs are built into their combos other than ToD.

A NIN being a MNK with Mudra is perfect for me.
I've never really liked the idea of standing next to a mob and hitting buttons, only moving for an AoE.
It's so static. I've bore it while playing most MMOs, but this is actually a brilliant to add a movement dynamic to a tab target game.

I know some don't see it this way, but I'm really glad they think it should be part of basic melee design.

Honestly I have doubts NIN will even match either of them with Mudras and positionals and debuffs and (if they make the skills necessary in HW) hate management, AND tp management. It's actually more like BRD, MNK and DRG mixed into one class with a dash of built in lag...

Is that a bad thing(except the lag)? NIN is like an omni-dps now.

And I have serious doubts that NIN will best them both in DPS even with the changes coming that might very well make it the hardest DPS class to play.

I will miss the diversity :/. I will now call Ninja "Monkja"

I think positionals are too good of a design to define only MNK. Just like oGCD usage doesn't define DRG and BRD.
MNKs will get combo finishers and Chakra to keep its own identity.
NIN is already it's own beast because of the Mudras.

Their rotations are still very different.

[Adire]

Is that a bad thing(except the lag)? NIN is like an omni-dps now.

It is when you have all the "weaknesses" (i.e. difficulty of playing) and none of the strengths (highest dps potential).

Also, I know some don't think a lack of positionals is "fun". But it is to me, and to a lot of people apparently I imagine.

It's all about variety. Diversity. NIN was an alternative for people who did not like lots of positionals and preferred managing lots of things at the same time. The lack of positionals was one of the defining characteristics of NIN that appealed to some. I am one of those people.

It's nice to give people a choice in what they play based on what they like, to give them options. I think this is more important than making NIN appeal more to current MNKs and less to current NINs.

I do not agree with taking away NIN's defining playstyle by making it more like MNK. If I wanted to do a lot of positionals, I would play MNK.

As I suggested in a previous post, they should add more management to NIN rather than throw in positionals. More mudras maybe, more DoTs to keep up, more buffs/debuffs to keep up, etc. It would preserve the defining appeal that NIN has without increasing its similarity to what appeals to MNK players.

And yeah, they are too good of a design choice to only be on MNK. However, positionals are crucial to MNK. It's what defines the job's playstyle.

NIN has its positional too, but positionals are not a constant stress of importance for a NIN. NINs only have to worry about that once every 60 seconds, and have to worry about everything else all the time. Managing your buffs/debuffs/DoTs/Mudras/CDs and such is where the NIN's difficulty and playstyle reside.

[Allyrion]

I do not agree with taking away NIN's defining playstyle by making it more like MNK. If I wanted to do a lot of positionals, I would play MNK.

Positionals and not-having-positionals are only defining to you because it's where you draw the line.

I understand you don't like it but there's much more to MNK than positionals, and they're emphasizing that with the Chakra stacks and consuming those and GL3.
MNK's identity lies with its buff stacking and maintaining, and soon to be consuming.

There's more to NIN than having no positionals.
They didn't even say how many there would be either.
But I think you clearly understand that the Mudra makes NIN unique, as well as Trick Attack and Goad.

You can complain that they're adding it to NIN while it wasn't there before.
I'll disagree but I respect that opinion. Don't act like they have their identities melded solely because positionals though.
That's like saying every other class is the same because they don't have positionals. You're just accustomed to that standard.
It's easy to say then, that there's a lack of diversity because only one class actually deals with positionals a lot.

I'm sorry it came to a class people rushed to get away from that aspect, but again we don't know how many positionals they'll even add.

[Adire]

snip

They really are defining...I don't have exact numbers obviously, but I'm sure lots of people were attracted specifically because NIN did not have positionals but relied on management.

NIN was also very fleshed out at release. And it was the only melee class to emphasize so much management, and had the fewest positionals, yet was still considered by many to be between DRG and MNK in play difficulty.

Why? Because of the complexity of the management required. The lack of positionals was, I'm assuming, due to this complexity. The complexity of the management made the job "difficult enough" to justify its damage output, judging by SE's acceptance of it until this point and the rarity of people saying "NIN is too easy!". It felt to me like the job was made to appeal to people who prefer a different style of DPSing, one that focuses much more on managing than on positionals. I mean, is it really that much of a stretch for me to say that? I don't think so. Look at bard for example. The easiest DPS class to play to most people, the lowest base DPS output.

Of course there's more to NIN than having no positionals. That's why I've been stressing the management importance that NINs have.

And yes, we don't know. If they insist on adding them, they should all be rear-based if for nothing else than common sense. But judging by what the translation lady said, they plan on having plenty positioning for NINs to enjoy.

And that's great that MNK is getting more stuff to think about. MNK will most likely continue to be the highest potential DPS class though, and the concepts that are coming for MNK are coming with brand new skills, not changing existing skills like what's happening with NIN.

If SE wants NIN to learn to use positionals, it should be treated like MNK. Bring in the new concepts for the job with new skills. Don't force NIN's to re-learn how to use all their old skills. And don't let NIN DPS fall behind the obviously much easier to play DRG.