RIP Ninja

[silentwindfr]

I can snap about 2k aggro in 2 seconds, on a target that doesn't allow a combo'd Halone. How do you expect the tank to manage that?

find me a situation where we can dps a target that the tank can't attack? because this tool will transfert the enmity of the target individually. if the tank can't hit the target (mostly because invincible) the ninja can't too, this tool become useless. and if it while a pack, if you don't attack the target of the tank you are a bad DD.

same for Arkenne, the tank generate tons of aggro, only when they are undergear it can happend to loose hate... even while the switch of aggro it will not be needed, since it only recquire the previous tank to not attack for 1-2 second. the healer that are too high in aggro really need to relearn how to play too, the white mage have a tool for regen mp and reduce then enmity... and the scholar have from the start it enmity divide between him and the pixie, since she do half of the healing.

seriously it's a situational tool, it don't means it a bad tool, but this is a tool that will have an utility extremly low in comparaison of other skill. something you will rarely use. like i did said, it's a QoL skill, it was not needed to wait the expansion for add it.... a patch was enough.

ps: one more time, if this skill become mandatory, because tank can't tank without it... the tank need rework...

T9 Green Golem. You can't have RoH/BB combo'd for it, so hopefully they have a +DPS CD up. Of course, I'm still going to open with TA, which is a lot of damage. Without the Echo, I could put out 2k damage or more between Suiton, Spinning, TA. If I'm not giving the tank time to get aggro, I have it. I'd rather give them my aggro and not have to wait.

*facepalms*

[NovaLevossida]

Maybe a bad tank will need your enmity to tank.

Or, the way I look at it, I can get rid of my enmity onto a bad tank so I'm not the one tanking.

...or I can move my enmity onto that one jerk in Duty Finder when the tank's Provoke is on cooldown.

[Viridiana]

find me a situation where we can dps a target that the tank can't attack? because this tool will transfert the enmity of the target individually. if the tank can't hit the target (mostly because invincible) the ninja can't too, this tool become useless. and if it while a pack, if you don't attack the target of the tank you are a bad DD.

Huh? Where did I ever say we were attacking a target the tank can't attack? Aside from my earlier example about having DPS tank an add (Garuda Extreme says hi!). We have a gap closer, faster movement speed, and a much faster GCD than the tank does. It's very easy to pull ahead a bit in aggro due to any of those. Yes, the longer the fight's been going the less it matters (except odd situations), but that's why almost all my examples have been on fresh targets.

[DoctorPepper]

Have to agree that I'm not a fan of the ninja changes either.

Not sure why they would throw us a useless ability that reduces aggro, the way I see it is if a monk and dragoon don't pull aggro with higher dps, then a ninja certainly won't either. I've played ninja a lot and aside from the odd time where I attacked the boss too quickly before the tank had it in place or pulled a single monster off of an under geared tank in a dungeon I've never had issues with pulling aggro. Other people may not agree but I think the enmity reducing ability is useless and unnecessary.

Additionally I'm not too fond of the positionals but I honestly can't say I'm surprised about those. Every other melee job has them so it was only a matter of time.

[Viridiana]

I've played ninja a lot and aside from the odd time where I attacked the boss too quickly before the tank had it in place or pulled a single monster off of an under geared tank in a dungeon I've never had issues with pulling aggro. Other people may not agree but I think the enmity reducing ability is useless and unnecessary.

Imagine not having to wait for that.

Really, though, if we're going to define "useless" to mean "will never be used if everything goes right," then we might as well get rid of Resurrection and Raise, too. Why would you need such useless abilities? The DPS just need to not stand in the fire, or the tank just needs to pop CDs. Get rid of Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon, too. Healers should be able to manage their MP, and DPS can just wait a moment if they're running low on TP.

[silentwindfr]

i think viridiana you don't know well how work the enmity into the game...
if you don't attack a target, as ninja, your enmity will be 0. since we don't have heal or taunting capacity that generate Enmity in area without dealing damage. the transfert of enmity will tranfert our enmity for each target to the tank, if we attack only one target, while you have multiple target, only for this target the tank will get something.

meaning for a monster that the tank can't attack (generally because invinicible) we can't give him enmity since.... well we don't generate any enmity to him.

the enmity is:
- Damage = % of enmity.
- heal done = % of enmity to all the target in fight.
- Taunt = get first on the hate list of the monster.
- Flash = % of enmity generate for each target affected in the area of the skill, without deal damage.

soo far this skill, like i have said have little to no real function outside give us something... because they had to give us skill. if the tank can't attack a target (because too far), it will be pointless since the tank enmity will not move from what we did give him. the tank will need to attack for get more enmity. if the monster is invincible, we will generate 0 enmity, then nothing to give to the tank.
if that was a transfert of hate positon, why not.... but that not the case, it's a skill more situational than what you think.

[Airget]

Imagine not having to wait for that.

Really, though, if we're going to define "useless" to mean "will never be used if everything goes right," then we might as well get rid of Resurrection and Raise, too. Why would you need such useless abilities? The DPS just need to not stand in the fire, or the tank just needs to pop CDs. Get rid of Mage's Ballad and Army's Paeon, too. Healers should be able to manage their MP, and DPS can just wait a moment if they're running low on TP.

Exactly, Ninja has more Burst damage compared to MNK and DRG. What this new ability does is allows Ninja to just go ham at the start of the fight and not wait for the tank to grave hate. Better yet a good NIN can do the whole spreading the dmg across enemies and if x enemy that is on the tank starts to grow more hatred towards you one ability and bam you just gave the hate of all targets on you to the tank.

[Riepah]

and bam you just gave the hate of all targets on you to the tank.

Or the healer... *giggles mischievously*

[Spiritreaver1217]

i think viridiana you don't know well how work the enmity into the game...
if you don't attack a target, as ninja, your enmity will be 0. since we don't have heal or taunting capacity that generate Enmity in area without dealing damage. the transfert of enmity will tranfert our enmity for each target to the tank, if we attack only one target, while you have multiple target, only for this target the tank will get something.

meaning for a monster that the tank can't attack (generally because invinicible) we can't give him enmity since.... well we don't generate any enmity to him.

the enmity is:
- Damage = % of enmity.
- heal done = % of enmity to all the target in fight.
- Taunt = get first on the hate list of the monster.
- Flash = % of enmity generate for each target affected in the area of the skill, without deal damage.

soo far this skill, like i have said have little to no real function outside give us something... because they had to give us skill. if the tank can't attack a target (because too far), it will be pointless since the tank enmity will not move from what we did give him. the tank will need to attack for get more enmity. if the monster is invincible, we will generate 0 enmity, then nothing to give to the tank.
if that was a transfert of hate positon, why not.... but that not the case, it's a skill more situational than what you think.

Huh?

Know you weren't addressing me, but wth are you going on about? I mean if you are writing off the ability because of one situation(and your already stated disdain of it) that is pretty disingenuous wouldn't you say?

A much more common situation where Kage-Watari would work nicely would be when there is a boss type mob and a bunch of trash mobs. Main tank grabs boss and off-tanks grab trash...or at least they are suppose to but miss some for whatever reason(or as i have seen of late, the off-tanks aren't even bothering to gather up the trash). NIN goes and Katon/Death Blossoms spams and grabs a some trash, pulls them to to the MT or an OT and dumps hate. Healers top off one DPS instead of multiple ones or themselves, fewer adds running wild, team profits.

I just don't see much bad there in my example. And it is at least as probable as yours.

[Viridiana]

i think viridiana you don't know well how work the enmity into the game...
if you don't attack a target, as ninja, your enmity will be 0. since we don't have heal or taunting capacity that generate Enmity in area without dealing damage. the transfert of enmity will tranfert our enmity for each target to the tank, if we attack only one target, while you have multiple target, only for this target the tank will get something.

Howsabout you actually read what I write? Where have I ever talked about attacking a target the tank can't? I'm specifically talking (with one exception) about attacking the same target as the tank. If my burst is bigger than their burst (after enmity multipliers), then I have aggro. If I can give them half the aggro I have, the enemy won't turn to face me. How the heck are you not getting that this is what I'm saying?

meaning for a monster that the tank can't attack (generally because invinicible) we can't give him enmity since.... well we don't generate any enmity to him.

Good thing that's not what I'm talking about. Aside from the one situation where I've mentioned DPS tanking adds, I've been constantly talking about pulls and mid-fight adds that don't allow combos. Well, and letting a tank swap happen with 0 downtime, but that's the least useful thing you can do with it aside from trolling.

the enmity is:
- Damage = % of enmity.
- heal done = % of enmity to all the target in fight.
- Taunt = get first on the hate list of the monster.
- Flash = % of enmity generate for each target affected in the area of the skill, without deal damage.

I know this. NIN can burst pretty hard on fresh targets. Tanks will often hold aggro, yes, but there will be times they won't. This is especially true if it's mid-fight and their abilities are on CD, or if there's a gear difference, or if the NIN is just plain closer to the enemy than the tank is. You think Spinning Edge plus Mug won't put you around orange enmity versus a Shield Lob, especially if you have 5-10 ilvl above the tank on your weapon?

soo far this skill, like i have said have little to no real function outside give us something... because they had to give us skill. if the tank can't attack a target (because too far), it will be pointless since the tank enmity will not move from what we did give him. the tank will need to attack for get more enmity. if the monster is invincible, we will generate 0 enmity, then nothing to give to the tank.
if that was a transfert of hate positon, why not.... but that not the case, it's a skill more situational than what you think.

You're the only one talking about invulnerable mobs. Why are you bringing up irrelevant topics?

And you still haven't addressed, for example, helping a DPS tank an add that they're supposed to tank.

Also also, seriously, SE, can we get more than 20 posts a day?