RIP Ninja

[silentwindfr]

ok a skill at use at the start of the fight.... for gain 2 second of fight... yeah indeed it was needed to add this for our expansion skillset... true!

please look what the other get in comparaison please. you are simply trying to defend SE too much! you ignoring 2 point:
1) it's simply a transfert of your enmity already created (from the description we did get).... then use it at the start of the fight is as intelligent than pull with the taunt if you can use shield lobs.
2) the CD, if it's a 2-3 minute CD, like most of the enmity reset, then it will be used only for a few fight...

but the point is more, even now, i have barely meet any situation where a tank, exept really bad one or really undergear one, was having trouble to tank over me. outside multiple target tanking. you are ignoring the fact that since the start i'm saying that this skill is too situational for be really usefull. if you look at every other jobs, they did offer them mechanic and skill that can be used inside them cycle... we are the only one getting stuff that have a limited impact even if some can be insanely good...

but what bother more, it's why our main tool, what define ninja, what we did earn from become ninja.... the ninjutsu was ignored with this expansion, why no new ninjutsu skill added outside the capacity to spam more raiton. it's nice to try to say that ninja did get stuff, it's better to admit that this skill gain with heavenward, so far, are underwhelming and look like added swiftly without any concern about our particularity or main tool.

for me Kage-watari, is not enough for pardon them inability to offer us a decent expansion experience as ninja player, you can try all you want to defend SE and them decision... but if you look at the big picture.... we did receive the shorthand of the stick.

ps: i hate this expression, but i'm tired of the white knight defending any decision of SE... when soo far, did they give us any good reason for them decision concerning the ninja? outside:
- did come out recently then don't need a lot of change.... Expansion = change and add of possibility for the class/jobs, in any mmorpg.
- the tank are the one that fight head on, the ninja need positional... the jobs wasn't designed for it! why add this now after more of 6 month? it was possible to add it with the 2.5 if that was really a concern! and more important why igtnore the part of the community that did decide to play this jobs because of the lack of positional?

[Viridiana]

ok a skill at use at the start of the fight.... for gain 2 second of fight... yeah indeed it was needed to add this for our expansion skillset... true!

Is one use. I can list more. In fact, I have listed more.

please look what the other get in comparaison please. you are simply trying to defend SE too much! you ignoring 2 point:
1) it's simply a transfert of your enmity already created (from the description we did get).... then use it at the start of the fight is as intelligent than pull with the taunt if you can use shield lobs.
2) the CD, if it's a 2-3 minute CD, like most of the enmity reset, then it will be used only for a few fight...

1) We don't really have full confirmation of that yet. Even if it does stay the same, there are situations where it can help.
2)Yes, I'm not saying it will be hugely beneficial. I'm saying it has its uses. You think the MNK ability that costs all of their GL is going to be useful more than once every few minutes? I don't see MNK complaining about that. Situational abilities are not a problem.

but the point is more, even now, i have barely meet any situation where a tank, exept really bad one or really undergear one, was having trouble to tank over me. outside multiple target tanking. you are ignoring the fact that since the start i'm saying that this skill is too situational for be really usefull. if you look at every other jobs, they did offer them mechanic and skill that can be used inside them cycle... we are the only one getting stuff that have a limited impact even if some can be insanely good...

Yep, and Raise is too situational, too. Guess we should get rid of it.

but what bother more, it's why our main tool, what define ninja, what we did earn from become ninja.... the ninjutsu was ignored with this expansion, why no new ninjutsu skill added outside the capacity to spam more raiton. it's nice to try to say that ninja did get stuff, it's better to admit that this skill gain with heavenward, so far, are underwhelming and look like added swiftly without any concern about our particularity or main tool.

I agree. I would have loved to get new ninjutsu. I mean, the ability to hit more Raiton/Fuma is nice, but I too would have liked to get something legitimately new. I do like some of the stuff we got in its place, but not having new ninjutsu is a legitimate downside. That's not a reason to downplay what we are getting, though.

ps: i hate this expression, but i'm tired of the white knight defending any decision of SE... when soo far, did they give us any good reason for them decision concerning the ninja?

I agree that the positionals are meh (waiting to see how bad it is). I also agree that not getting new ninjutsu is bleh. But I think that getting huton extensions, enmity management, and an ability that lets a weaponskill triple-attack are some nice abilities. They're not game changers like the other classes are getting, but I'm okay with that. I'm not blindly defending them. I've expressed in a number of threads, including this one, aspects of the changes I'm not thrilled with. But in each of these cases, I feel that waiting until we have concrete information is the wiser choice.

[silentwindfr]

snips

i don't say that this skill is bad, i'm saying that it impact is not good enough for be added like a big feature of the ninja with an expansion. like i did said, it's something that was able to be added with a patch, not an expansion.

about the fact that Monk get a new attack for burn the GL, i feel it can be interesting, especially if used correctly with the royal road of the astrologian and perfect balance... with the correct setup, the damage output earn from it will be insane. an example of setup that will recquire teamplay. (recquiring 1 astrologian, 1 ninja and 1 monk)
- First the astrologian prepare him Royal Road and get it with balance for the next draw (ok quite lucky but still), it will increase the effect of balance: +10% of damage. royal road can (depending of the card used before for boost the next draw) increase of +150% the potency of a card, increasing the damage of the target for 15-20 second of 25%
- the ninja get ready to use TA and increase the damage on the target of 10%
- the monk use the Tornado Kick (Tornado Kick - 500 potency attack that consumes 3 stacks of Greased Lightning. 60 Second Cooldown. (Off global cooldown)
) after receiving Royal Road Balance, and use perfect balance, allowing him to get back the 3 stack quite fast and return to a full burst of damage...

indeed it's a quite heavy setup and recquire luck and teamwork. but well executed, it will be devastating.

and it's one of the few use you can do with this skill. actually, if it get the damage boost from GL, it's far stronger than any attack of the game.

on other hand we did receive... i have said it before, we don't really have any synergy born from this expansion and skillset. saying that we did receive the shorthand of the stick is not a joke. it's only one of the few example of synergy born from the mechanic and gameplay added with this expansion.

even issou and musou sandan are nice, they are not representing the ninja... they mostly weaponskill... the rogue part of our gameplay. one another point Musou Sandan and issous seems to be used simply for increase easily our dps and give us huge burst. without really add mechanic that will bring something fresh and interesting. it's like a 1 button skill that will let you deal tons of damage!

it's the same about the skill for refresh Huton, why add it? if they don't give use more ninjutsu mechanic for use it with it? it's another weird way to increase our dps without add gameplay mechanic outside make us use one more skill in combo.
finally Kage-Watari, on paper it's nice add, but, i feel it's weird to add it to us. it's like try to give use an utility, for make us interesting... but, don't this skill will have been better on jobs like machinist or bard?

don't get me wrong, i don't feel that we will lacking dps, but we will lack new experience in term of gameplay, this new skill will be used, but do they will really add anything new and interesting to our jobs? do they have any logic behind it?

because soo far every add i have seen for the other jobs had a logic behind it. but when i read the skill of the ninja... i'm lost, they do'nt bring synergi, they don't offer new mechanic, they feel...weird and underwhelming, like hastly added without any concern behind what this will bring to us.

it's not later that we must say it, it's now, for they begin to think about it... because later it will be too late.

ps: i had to go check one more time what do musou sandan/issou, and i was wrong ^^

[Pluvia]

So correct me if I'm wrong we're not just getting one aggro modifying move but 2. Here is the article http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...11#post6433711
overall the Huton extender will be a decent QoL increase but the only really amazing and i mean amazing thing is the action that allows a weaponskill to hit 3 times. Overall HW can't come fast enough.

Also would of been cool if they would of put the new weaponskill off of shadowfang to make it a 3 step combo. instead of off gust slash but either way I like the look of the attack.

[Viridiana]

i don't say that this skill is bad, i'm saying that it impact is not good enough for be added like a big feature of the ninja with an expansion. like i did said, it's something that was able to be added with a patch, not an expansion.

You keep saying it's useless. A useless ability is a bad ability. A niche ability is not a bad ability, as long as the niche is somewhat common.

about the fact that Monk get a new attack for burn the GL, i feel it can be interesting, especially if used correctly with the royal road of the astrologian and perfect balance...

So, your niche use requires a party that has 3 classes in it, with some RNG, and with multiple long CDs. Mine requires very little setup. I'm not saying yours can't happen, but damn that's a lot of setup. Versus, say, smacking something a few times and transfering your enmity before you steal hate.

on other hand we did receive... i have said it before, we don't really have any synergy born from this expansion and skillset.

Right, because enmity transfer abilities are totally not synergy.

one another point Musou Sandan, is not a 3 hit attack, it's a skill added at the third position of a combo. it's flashy but exept if it dps is really high...

Not what it says here: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/125...vent-5-18-5-21

i means Aeolian Edge is already a powerfull attack at 320 potency, what will be the role of Musou Sandan? why add another skill that seems to have the same function than Aeolian Edge?

Except Musou Sandan, from the information I see, makes the WS go three times. Which is a boost of 640 potency if AE stays our most powerful WS.

what the goal of Issou? boost our weaponskill damage? but why? i means wasn't it better to offer us new mechanic tie to the ninjutsu? i means it's only a weird way to increase our damage without really add new gameplay mechanic.

Dunno, not really any info on it. A basic DPS CD is still nice, though I concede that it's not a game-changer.

it's the same about the skill for refresh Huton, why add it? if they don't give use more ninjutsu mechanic for use it with it? it's another weird way to increase our dps without add gameplay mechanic outside make us use one more skill in combo.

I mean, it does mean we get to use more damaging ninjutsu, and it means when they add in new ninjutsu (which I'm sure they eventually will) we'll get to use them often. The way it was currently set up, 3 ninjutsu a minute means they don't have room to add in new ninjutsu. Any new ninjutsu (unless tied to a 2 min or longer CD) would have to replace either Raiton (which is powerful), Suiton (which is even more powerful), or Huton (so powerful it's not going to happen). But, if they give us a mechanic to extend Huton, that means we can eventually get a second 1-minute ninjutsu to pair with Suiton. This means we can eventually have more options, which is good. Could they have done it all at once? Yes. But that doesn't mean the groundwork is bad.

finally Kage-Watari, on paper it's nice add, but, i feel it's weird to add it to us. it's like try to give use an utility, for make us interesting... but, don't this skill will have been better on jobs like machinist or bard?

Honestly, I don't think any DPS class should be without some ability to manipulate aggro or at least aggro generation. BRD, BLM, SMN (even if they don't need it at all, really), and DRG all have ways to manage their own aggro even if the tank is absolutely atrocious. Do they always need it? No. Do they always use it when they should? No. But I would have put this ability on the initial release of NIN and MNK. I wouldn't have waited until the expansion to put it on NIN, and I would certainly have put it on MNK by now (even though MNK has a slower ramp up).

don't get me wrong, i don't feel that we will lacking dps, but we will lack new experience in term of gameplay, this new skill will be used, but do they will really add anything new and interesting to our jobs? do they have any logic behind it?

Honestly, I don't particularly like the vast swings of meta involved in adding game-changing abilities at certain levels. To use BRD as an example, BRD after Wanderer's Minuet will be a fundamentally different job than before WM. If WM is a level 60 skill, that means every single non-60 instance will have BRDs playing fundamentally differently than they do at 60. That's not fun (imo), that's frustrating. I'm more happy to get nice toys to play with every few levels that give me more tools to use.

[Allyrion]

But do remember, a 4th mudra by itself, without altering anything about how mudras work right now, is adding seven new abilities to the class. The devs would be better served making a special mudra that, when combined with a very specific combo of mudra of N lengths long, would give the ninja some hyper-powerful buff or damage ability or something. That's something the devs could do that would be interesting and really feel awesome. But I digress.

I think a way to expand mudra without adding an extra would be making double tapping mudras into a ninjutsu. I know that basically removes the rabbit from 2-Mudra combinations, but I feel like we can gain a lot from that. I also agree that adding a 4th would be the wrong step because the ninjutsu might get super niche adding 7 combinations, and that's IF we don't get 4-Mudra combinations due to having 4. That would be horrible for lag.

I think double tapped mudra and maybe even 3-Mudra combinations with those might be the best way to expand ninjutsu as opposed to adding Mudra themselves.

I agree with the rest of your post.
Though I'm okay with positionals, I can understand being bothered by it when the class hasn't had any.
I think people should try it first though before being sure it'll kill the class.

Honestly, I don't particularly like the vast swings of meta involved in adding game-changing abilities at certain levels. To use BRD as an example, BRD after Wanderer's Minuet will be a fundamentally different job than before WM. If WM is a level 60 skill, that means every single non-60 instance will have BRDs playing fundamentally differently than they do at 60. That's not fun (imo), that's frustrating. I'm more happy to get nice toys to play with every few levels that give me more tools to use.

<3
I feel like the complaining that NIN isn't going to get changed is just going to make them wait till expansions to introduce new Jobs.
I want NIN to develop and get new stuff. But we are developing and, we're fairly new as well.
People may be used to expecting everyone getting the same treatment at expansions, but that's because you don't usually get a whole new class (Job) in a patch.
Change for the sake of change is bad.
There's a million things we can think of to develop NIN, but it has to be balanced in the context of the other Jobs as well and they added 3 new Jobs this expansion as well.
They can't just put in whatever cool idea comes up in their head for ninja.
It needs to sync with their class and they need to develop a cohesive design.

So I'm fine with some thoughtful new tools over rushed tacked on mechanics for the sake of equality.

why play ninja over dragoon or monk? what we had soo far was 3 jobs with different gameplay, but with positional and the ninjutsu underused, we aren't different of the dragoon or monk. before it was, if you want an heavy positional class, you go with monk. a job with a bit of positional, you will go with dragoon. and if you want a jobs without positional, it was ninja. it was the difference between the 3. no?

Underused? That's really surprising.
Ninjutsu is one of my favourite things about NIN and using it every 20 seconds is great. That's because I always considered the cooldown short for such a mechanic.
Though DRG gets Jumps on separate cooldowns, those cooldowns are very long.
Though, as Viridiana pointed out, it's the same amount that we get to use it, ours is spread much more evenly throughout the fight. I prefer that.

Though ninjutsu drew me to ninja, it was because it complimented it's actual melee skills.
The last thing I want is for ninjutsu to take over the class. It should still be an assassin, first and foremost by using its weaponskills.
The Ninjutsu add a special flavor to those assassin skills, but I don't want us to turn into Naruto ninjas (no hate or anything, but they're not real ninjas).
It should be a closer blend to the more real Ninja archetype (which is an assassin) and elemental myths that surround them.
We have that now and that's what makes the class so appealing, to me at least.

If it was just a normal assassin, I wouldn't like it. If the ninjutsu took over, I wouldn't like it either.
It sounds like you want the latter. They've done a good job of balancing the two sides and I do hope they continue to interact a little like Trick Attack and the new weaponskill that extends Fuuton.

[silentwindfr]

from what i read it's the try to make us a support melee.... what bother me a looot!

Ninja was a job that was added later on, and at first glance it looks like there is no significant change to the basics of their battle capabilities.

this part anger me anyway...

[LTEvil]

The threat ability is not useless. But it is as far to the bottom as niche abilities can go. Unless drk can cross class it as a second provoke for something which I'm not even sure if they will have thf sub. But it's not useless. Just not impressive at all. Nins saying they currently can take hate at the start of a fight are playing with bad tanks. If we are designing things on the pretense all the players are bad why add positional? We should remove all of them and add more echo! But I believe the new skill will be a handle for a new mechanic. Possibility aggro dumping mob?

[LTEvil]

Viridiana makes some good point. I'm not sure if nin is headed to support role. But it's getting more raid utility which isn't bad. People just mad they didn't see a flashy skill yet.

[silentwindfr]

useless is maybe a bit too strong as terms, but low utility if you prefer... like i did said countless time, this sort of skill was able to be added while a patch, like they have done for stoneskin 2 (if it was needed)

for musou sandan, yeah i did read after hand, and AE with it will hit for 960 potency, however i'm a bit worried about this sort of easy way to increase our dps without really asking us anything. same for issou, that increase the damage of the weaponskill.

on the 4 skill announced for the ninja (and i pray the god we do get more) 2 are buff that increase our dps (in burst mostly), one with low utility (kage-watari) and one that allows us to use more ninjutsu, but no new ninjutsu.

sorry, but i don't see this giving us more utility in raid, kage watari with a good group will be useless, since enmity is not a trouble. depending of the CD on issou and musou sandan, it can have a lot or a little impact on the dps of the ninja. but it don't change the fact that the way to handle this augmentation of dps, is.... how say nicely... weird?

ok let me explain what i want to say, all the other jobs will get this boost of dps throught new mechanic that will recquire a bit of more skill for be mastered. what worried me about this way to do thing, it's if the ninja get a better or a close dps to the top dps, that the other community will come and cry that we don't have get any difficulty from it... and i'm worried it's the reason behind the positional or worse, the fact that we do get tool for increase soo much our dps soo easily... is because we do get positional. meaning that they admit to add positional make the jobs really hard to master and add more mechanic to the jobs is complicate.

maybe i read too much into it. but the fact to get positional fighting + this easy mechanic of boost of dps.... i can't shake the idea that all of this stink badly. i really feel that we did get the shorthand of stick and nothing we say or do, will change this, because (and i have said it a lot of time) they don't know what they want to do with the ninja... instead to work on it seriously and work on our symbolic skill (ninjutsu) they did decide to ignore it totally and focus most of the change on the weaponskill... the rogue part of our jobs. for me we didn't receive jobs skill, but rogue skill. even the jobquest until now was about how use ninjutsu correctly and how ninja use them for get the advantage over the fight. but here, nothing of this. if they don't plan to work on our main tool.... why did they create the ninja? why not have stick with the rogue from the start? it will have been far easier for them... no mudra lag and able to put all the positional they want!

*shrugs* more i learn about the ninja in heavenwards more i don't understand what they try to accomplish with the jobs... for me all we did get was change on the rogue part... not the ninja part, outside the skill for refresh huton, but it was more a qol change than a real upgrade for the ninja, since we are still stuck with the 3 same ninjutsu.

ps: by the way about musou sandan, if it work on TA and SA, i feel we gonna see a lot of ninja move infront of the boss... because 500*3 it's still a 1500 potency.... insane number, even if we stick with other it's still 1200 potency.

pss: 2 skill of control of enmity? seriously...