RIP Ninja

[DoctorPepper]

Have to agree that I'm not a fan of the ninja changes either.

Not sure why they would throw us a useless ability that reduces aggro, the way I see it is if a monk and dragoon don't pull aggro with higher dps, then a ninja certainly won't either. I've played ninja a lot and aside from the odd time where I attacked the boss too quickly before the tank had it in place or pulled a single monster off of an under geared tank in a dungeon I've never had issues with pulling aggro. Other people may not agree but I think the enmity reducing ability is useless and unnecessary.

Additionally I'm not too fond of the positionals but I honestly can't say I'm surprised about those. Every other melee job has them so it was only a matter of time.

[Arkenne]

I play the NIN as some sort of assassin class, so the burst gets real when there is a mob that needs to die asap. Its not too bad a skill if you think of it as a means to avoid your own death because of your own bursts.

A little different concept of a survability tool.

[NovaLevossida]

Maybe a bad tank will need your enmity to tank.

Or, the way I look at it, I can get rid of my enmity onto a bad tank so I'm not the one tanking.

...or I can move my enmity onto that one jerk in Duty Finder when the tank's Provoke is on cooldown.

[silentwindfr]

i think viridiana you don't know well how work the enmity into the game...
if you don't attack a target, as ninja, your enmity will be 0. since we don't have heal or taunting capacity that generate Enmity in area without dealing damage. the transfert of enmity will tranfert our enmity for each target to the tank, if we attack only one target, while you have multiple target, only for this target the tank will get something.

meaning for a monster that the tank can't attack (generally because invinicible) we can't give him enmity since.... well we don't generate any enmity to him.

the enmity is:
- Damage = % of enmity.
- heal done = % of enmity to all the target in fight.
- Taunt = get first on the hate list of the monster.
- Flash = % of enmity generate for each target affected in the area of the skill, without deal damage.

soo far this skill, like i have said have little to no real function outside give us something... because they had to give us skill. if the tank can't attack a target (because too far), it will be pointless since the tank enmity will not move from what we did give him. the tank will need to attack for get more enmity. if the monster is invincible, we will generate 0 enmity, then nothing to give to the tank.
if that was a transfert of hate positon, why not.... but that not the case, it's a skill more situational than what you think.

[Spiritreaver1217]

i think viridiana you don't know well how work the enmity into the game...
if you don't attack a target, as ninja, your enmity will be 0. since we don't have heal or taunting capacity that generate Enmity in area without dealing damage. the transfert of enmity will tranfert our enmity for each target to the tank, if we attack only one target, while you have multiple target, only for this target the tank will get something.

meaning for a monster that the tank can't attack (generally because invinicible) we can't give him enmity since.... well we don't generate any enmity to him.

the enmity is:
- Damage = % of enmity.
- heal done = % of enmity to all the target in fight.
- Taunt = get first on the hate list of the monster.
- Flash = % of enmity generate for each target affected in the area of the skill, without deal damage.

soo far this skill, like i have said have little to no real function outside give us something... because they had to give us skill. if the tank can't attack a target (because too far), it will be pointless since the tank enmity will not move from what we did give him. the tank will need to attack for get more enmity. if the monster is invincible, we will generate 0 enmity, then nothing to give to the tank.
if that was a transfert of hate positon, why not.... but that not the case, it's a skill more situational than what you think.

Huh?

Know you weren't addressing me, but wth are you going on about? I mean if you are writing off the ability because of one situation(and your already stated disdain of it) that is pretty disingenuous wouldn't you say?

A much more common situation where Kage-Watari would work nicely would be when there is a boss type mob and a bunch of trash mobs. Main tank grabs boss and off-tanks grab trash...or at least they are suppose to but miss some for whatever reason(or as i have seen of late, the off-tanks aren't even bothering to gather up the trash). NIN goes and Katon/Death Blossoms spams and grabs a some trash, pulls them to to the MT or an OT and dumps hate. Healers top off one DPS instead of multiple ones or themselves, fewer adds running wild, team profits.

I just don't see much bad there in my example. And it is at least as probable as yours.

[Viridiana]

i think viridiana you don't know well how work the enmity into the game...
if you don't attack a target, as ninja, your enmity will be 0. since we don't have heal or taunting capacity that generate Enmity in area without dealing damage. the transfert of enmity will tranfert our enmity for each target to the tank, if we attack only one target, while you have multiple target, only for this target the tank will get something.

Howsabout you actually read what I write? Where have I ever talked about attacking a target the tank can't? I'm specifically talking (with one exception) about attacking the same target as the tank. If my burst is bigger than their burst (after enmity multipliers), then I have aggro. If I can give them half the aggro I have, the enemy won't turn to face me. How the heck are you not getting that this is what I'm saying?

meaning for a monster that the tank can't attack (generally because invinicible) we can't give him enmity since.... well we don't generate any enmity to him.

Good thing that's not what I'm talking about. Aside from the one situation where I've mentioned DPS tanking adds, I've been constantly talking about pulls and mid-fight adds that don't allow combos. Well, and letting a tank swap happen with 0 downtime, but that's the least useful thing you can do with it aside from trolling.

the enmity is:
- Damage = % of enmity.
- heal done = % of enmity to all the target in fight.
- Taunt = get first on the hate list of the monster.
- Flash = % of enmity generate for each target affected in the area of the skill, without deal damage.

I know this. NIN can burst pretty hard on fresh targets. Tanks will often hold aggro, yes, but there will be times they won't. This is especially true if it's mid-fight and their abilities are on CD, or if there's a gear difference, or if the NIN is just plain closer to the enemy than the tank is. You think Spinning Edge plus Mug won't put you around orange enmity versus a Shield Lob, especially if you have 5-10 ilvl above the tank on your weapon?

soo far this skill, like i have said have little to no real function outside give us something... because they had to give us skill. if the tank can't attack a target (because too far), it will be pointless since the tank enmity will not move from what we did give him. the tank will need to attack for get more enmity. if the monster is invincible, we will generate 0 enmity, then nothing to give to the tank.
if that was a transfert of hate positon, why not.... but that not the case, it's a skill more situational than what you think.

You're the only one talking about invulnerable mobs. Why are you bringing up irrelevant topics?

And you still haven't addressed, for example, helping a DPS tank an add that they're supposed to tank.

Also also, seriously, SE, can we get more than 20 posts a day?

[silentwindfr]

seriously at equal stuff, on one target, you can't beat the enmity generate by a tank...
even with undergear tank, you need to clearly be over equiped for take the hate of a tank. the only case where the tank can have a trouble (and mostly the paladin) is while the multi tanking. where the ninja is not really exelent AoE is clearly not our forte.

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

i did play a looot tank and any tank can say that for now this skill will not be needed, it's a band aid for bad tank or really undergear tank that prioritize them armor over them weapon, leading them to be short on hate.

i did still do a test early with a friend as a tank, a paladin one! against a dps, i did leave him start the fight and without use taunt did take back the hate quite easily. this skill is an unneeded skill that will have a low utility.

ps: you try to to defend them choice, when it's not possible to say what they did bring us is equal to what the other did receive... we are not talking of a patch adding skill, but an expansion, that add 10 more level... we are the only jobs don't freaking changing outside having positional added to our skill! all the other jobs did get more possibility, we are the only one that did receive no change and only did get more limitation.... for no valid reason and the skill gained have little utility or.... are under mined by the fact that they miss a large part of what it was needed for make them really interesting. i'm talking there of the skill that will refresh Huton, it will be amazing if we had receive more ninjutsu to be added to our cycle, instead we do get to do more of the skill earn previously...

[SDaemon]

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

[Viridiana]

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

I can wait just fine. You're ignoring that if I have the option to burst without causing aggro issues, that's preferable to not doing dps and not causing aggro issues. Just because you want to ignore a valid use doesn't mean it isn't a valid use.

[Houston009]

if you can't wait 2 second for the tank to be at melee for start to dps, you really really need to relearn how to play.... you are simply showing what is a bad dps.

I enjoy reading your post a lot, they are always such great laughs, and for that I thank you.