Level Sync QoL: Keep Abilities Intact

[Almalexia]

Because you're level sync'd. You didn't level down. You didn't magically forget how to use Fire III.

The potency and combo potential of Fire III is not balanced for level 20, or any content prior to the level BLM learns Fire III.

"They can balance it!"

Sure. After they add player app tools, world primals, airship building, DX11 and Ishgard in 1.0 I mean Ishgard in 2.0 I mean Ishgard in 3.0.

Aren't you guys satisfied with SCH cheating the system for like 5 dungeons?

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Here's the ultimate reason why they won't change it: Balancing reasons. While they probably could attempt to make it where you could use all your skills and it still be balanced, the way they currently do it is already damn well balanced. About the only thing you could bring up as unbalanced is Warrior's defiance vs Paladin's Shield oath being at different levels, and even then, my first job was a Paladin and I got through the 30-40 dungeons fine without it, it wasn't that bad.

It may be balanced, however it doesn't make any sense. You don't unlearn abilities when you go through dungeons. However, also what about the factor we seem to be forgetting in mmos these days called "Fun"? A funless game is one nobody likes to play.

Fire 2 has a potency of 100. Flare has a potency of 260. A BLM in Sastasha or Copperbell with access to flare can do 2.6 times the damage as AoE burst, while the tank has no tank stance, no rage of halone, and only overpower or flash. Except the BLM's DPS increases even more as he'll also have switftcast allowing him to cast this 2.6x as strong attack instantly, and access to firestarter and thunderstorm procs. And that's just BLM. A monk who can get GL3, use demolish, perfect balance, fists of fire, dragon kick, etc. in low level dungeons is also going to rip aggro away from an unsynked tank like candy from a lallafel. A synked DD will, absolutely, do a metric fuckton more damage than is intended in these dungeons which will both make it impossible to hold aggro for the tank and make the dungeon far too easy robbing new players of the experience.

Look, I absolutely hate getting a pre-butcher's block dungeon for War, or, god, getting anything pre-full thrust as drg makes me want to kill myself (HT->ID->ID->ID->ID->HT ad infinitum, SO EXCITING), but the fact of the matter is that allowing people to use their full range of skills in dungeons is going to completely trivialize that content and it's all going to be boring, confusing, and frustrating to new players. Even in the best case scenario, imagine if every dungeon while you were leveling allowed you to contribute as much as DFing into a Garuda HM farm party as a fresh 50 these days? That is to say: Not at all. Dungeons wouldn't be fun or interesting. The stories behind them would seem pointless: After all, how dangerous can these giants really be when their king just got annihilated in 10 GCDs by a BLM with firestarter procs, while you, the healer, just sat there watching the tank heal themselves more than you can for the whole dungeon because he had unchained, berserk, bloodlust and whatever else up, and you wouldn't be able to learn your class. There'd be no fun to be had for new players running dungeons at that point.

Plus, SE uses lower dungeons as a way to introduce mechanics in easier/more forgiving ways before re-introducing them with new twists or alongside more mechanics in later dungeons. People already like to whine about 'casuals' and 'bads', but if you take away anyone's ability to learn any mechanics pre-50 that's going to get so much worse and it's going to be frustrating both for veterans trying to run dungeons with people whose skill hasn't been allowed to grow at all from 1-50, and for new players who are suddenly expected to know their classes when they hit 50 and don't, and so keep dying/causing wipes/getting yelled at.

Yes, he "can" but will he do it if the tank is low level? I mean, even though you have access to use doesn't mean your going to use the ability like you would normally, especially when you know the tank is lower level, unless YOUR wanting to tank. In low level dungeons as a healer (even when I was low level) I didn't care who tanked, as long as it wasn't me! I've tanked all the low level zones as a Mage. It can be done.

You can't really blame the tank for that, you knew he didn't have the abilities he had, so what can he say? Nothing.

Now, if the boss is almost dead? I can see him doing this, and really helping out the group. What about when trash is almost dead? He doesn't have to save this for a starter.

I'm kind of tired of "What-ifs" when your argument is ridiculous. That is like waiting for someone to walk in the street running them over with a car and telling them its their fault for being too slow!

The potency and combo potential of Fire III is not balanced for level 20, or any content prior to the level BLM learns Fire III.

"They can balance it!"

Sure. After they add player app tools, world primals, airship building, DX11 and Ishgard in 1.0 I mean Ishgard in 2.0 I mean Ishgard in 3.0.

Aren't you guys satisfied with SCH cheating the system for like 5 dungeons?

Its not balanced for it, and that is good. It gives people something to look forward too when they level up. The game, doesn't have to be balanced its not a PvP game. Players in this game are not competition they are allies. Sure, maybe someone will frustrate another player. However none of you are saying how much this will ACTUALLY HELP NEW PLAYERS too.

- Level 30 Warriors have a lot easier time doing 30-39 dungeons then Level 30-39 Paladins! Where is the Balance?
- As a Scholar I can summon my faerie in level 10 zones? Where is the Balance!
- As a Summoner, my tank has more health and armor and damage then a level 1-29 tank? WHERE IS THE BALANCE?!
- At high level Scholar gets out done my WHM in most ways.
- In high level Summoners are completely useless compared to BLM.

WHERE IS THE BALANCE?!

The truth is, balance is a silly argument.

[Felis]

When the hell are you people and Yoshi going to stop using the "Yeah but the NEW people..." argument for every design related decision in this game? Why is it always automatically assumed that new players are as braindead as the current playerbase? Have any of you ever stopped to think that maybe we wouldn't have as many player skill issues at level 50 if we didn't baby and hand-hold the new people all the live long day? Stop implying that the game needs to be designed around this hypothetical braindead new player you all seem to want to hide behind and begin to realize that the game needs to be designed around keeping current subscribers by introducing changes that make the game more fun at level 50.

It is not so much for new players, more for old players who want to bring speed runs into low level dungeons.

[kyuven]

1) Right now, some of us don't run low-level content because it's boring and we can't do it with friends without directly que'ing into the instance. So right now, I'm not doing low level roulette because the tomes are a joke and the content is jsut SO BORING because of the lack of buttons to press. Sorry, but 3 button gameplay is NOT fun to me.

Then it's not for you. I find killing bees outside Ul'Dah boring, but new players still do it and it's fun at the time as they figure out how their skills work.

2) Having access to our full kits, you're worried that we'll rip threat off the tank and then blast them for being bad. Here's the thing, though... We already rip hate off the tanks. I have no problem on DRG or BLM if I ST and the tank is newer ripping threat off the tank. It's very easy to do pre-30/40 with newer tanks. This is a responsibility of the DPS to not let this happen.

Oh yeah it is. But when a SINGLE rotation can do it without even trying? Or better yet, when a BLM can use their "infinite combo" and keep hate better than any lowbie tank? Why bother having a tank when the BLM is doing better damage, keeping better aggro, and taking only slightly more damage? Low level dungeons ARE a "joke" because they're meant for low levels.

3) Having access to our full kits, you're neglecting we get ways to manage our threat. Dragoons recieve elusive jump. Black Mage and Summoner cross-class Quelling Strikes. Monk has naturally low potency strikes to avoid generating large threat and relies on pumping out damage fast to make up for it. Not having access to these skills actually reduces our abilities to reduce threat. Having access to all our CD's also hurts because we can't negate damage as much - stressing the healer more.

What about those who DON'T have those skills? I can't believe I have to say this, I really can't, but high level play is NOT low level play. Also, there's a certain point when even quelling strikes can't help you. I am not joking when I say i've peeled aggro off a tank while quelling strikes is up with a single BLM combo. And this was a tank WITH shield oath/defiance on. How do you think that will go down in low level dungeons with tanks NOT having those abilities yet?

4) What about tanks that want to do low level? Imagine a paladin with Shield / Sword oath in level 15 dungouns. Their threat will be rediculous. DPS could really go all-out if they wanted to.

Sure that'd be "great" but you're forgetting the reverse: What about the statistically more likely scenario when you DON'T have a 50 tank or healer? A low level tank is not designed to be able to hold aggro off a full-rotation BLM, BRD or MNK. They simply do not have the tools yet.

5) Faster runs dont' necessarily have to be a bad thing. I don't get why people think that it's only speed runners that want faster runs. Faster run = more mobs killed per hour for low-level players = faster leveling experience.

Faster runs don't necessarily mean BETTER runs. Running a dungeon should be a learning experience for people within the level bracket. What you're suggesting is basically carrying new players through dungeons the way people are carried through the new primals by light farms. You're excising an important part of the learning experience for the sake of speed.

These are just some of my opinions on the matter. There will always exist counters to each - such as people just being ****y human beings in the first place. But I'm going to be honest with you... People will be ****y human beings regardless if they get skills or not. Those people are already being horrid people.

Exactly, why give them more ammo?

Truth is I've seen games that go the other route, and it's not very pretty. There's no challenge with a high level in the party since, even with level syncing, they carry their skills with them. CoH was one the games that did this, and even had a mentor/sidekick system that allowed it to work both ways. It was always infinitely more challenging to have a sidekick since the enemies the mentor would fight would be designed for the mentor's abilities, which are progressive, while the sidekick, who may be scaled up, still has their low level abilities.
There's a reason so many games opt for XIV's model.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

How about this then.

For Duty Finder:
Same as it is now, locked skills.

For Entering Dungeon Normally with your own PREMADE group:
You get all the skills available to you your level is just lowered to the dungeons but you don't lose any skills.

This is best for both worlds.

Now you won't have mad players, because it was a group you made yourself.


Also, make it so you can group for low level roulettes.

[Cakekizy]

How about this then.

For Duty Finder:
Same as it is now, locked skills.

For Entering Dungeon Normally with your own PREMADE group:
You get all the skills available to you your level is just lowered to the dungeons but you don't lose any skills.

This is best for both worlds.

Now you won't have mad players, because it was a group you made yourself.


Also, make it so you can group for low level roulettes.

Now if only there were an option to enter a dungeon without being level synced. The most fun I had in WoW and EQ was going to old dungeons and soloing them.

[kyuven]

How about this then.

For Duty Finder:
Same as it is now, locked skills.

For Entering Dungeon Normally with your own PREMADE group:
You get all the skills available to you your level is just lowered to the dungeons but you don't lose any skills.

Also, make it so you can group for low level roulettes.

Devil's advocate: This will never, EVER happen because of the amount of effort required to retool the way instances work. No, I don't mean the encounters, I mean the way it handles players going in. You're basically asking them to institute an entire new system of syncing for a very specific situation that would either be rarely used or completely abused, simple with the following PF message:
"Selling dungeon runs"
This means fewer people join the DF, which means longer queues, which means more unhappy players. And they would have to expend EFFORT to do this.
Game design 101: Don't expend effort on something you KNOW will cause strife with your players. 1.0 learned this the hard way.


Grouping for low level roulettes might happen but is unlikely because it goes against the purpose of the low level roulette. You may not LIKE that purpose, but you don't have to.

[Eidolon]

Then it's not for you. I find killing bees outside Ul'Dah boring, but new players still do it and it's fun at the time as they figure out how their skills work.

Those mobs are put there for two reasons:

EXP targets
Mats

That's it. Hunting log = EXP. Companion = EXP. Drops = Mats. Etcetera.

At my current phase, there's no reason I'd want to go back there. So yea. If killing bees suits your fancy? That's fine. It has purpose to you. But not for me. Low levels, however, still have a use to me.

Oh yeah it is. But when a SINGLE rotation can do it without even trying? Or better yet, when a BLM can use their "infinite combo" and keep hate better than any lowbie tank? Why bother having a tank when the BLM is doing better damage, keeping better aggro, and taking only slightly more damage? Low level dungeons ARE a "joke" because they're meant for low levels.

You've... never healed a BLM trying to tank more than one mob at a time, have you? Black Mages suffer a fun little thing that can happen when they're taking damage - namely, interrupting their casts. This is more common with on-level and higher-level enemies.

If you're -that- concerned about it, you know that SE can easily re-tune skills that "While level synched: X potency" right? They do things like this for PVP already.

What about those who DON'T have those skills? I can't believe I have to say this, I really can't, but high level play is NOT low level play. Also, there's a certain point when even quelling strikes can't help you. I am not joking when I say i've peeled aggro off a tank while quelling strikes is up with a single BLM combo. And this was a tank WITH shield oath/defiance on. How do you think that will go down in low level dungeons with tanks NOT having those abilities yet?

I can't believe I have to say this, I really can't, but Low Level play doesn't need to be a chore for people who have gone through the experience once already. Not only that, by limiting the skills, you are effectively hurting leveling players.

Let's say Player A does 1 dungoun a day, via the roulette. Let's say every time, he gets the level 15-20 dungouns, as is very likely to happen (I swear I don't know why ... but I always seem to get it if I ever bother doing it)

Now. Let's say he got to 40 doing this. How much of his rotation do you think he knows in level 40 now? How much of his skills do you think he's gotten to practically use? By dumbing down the content so much, you've literally reduced the amount that people get to use meaningfully.

This is why so many people refer to players who don't know their rotations as "Fate levelers."

Sure that'd be "great" but you're forgetting the reverse: What about the statistically more likely scenario when you DON'T have a 50 tank or healer? A low level tank is not designed to be able to hold aggro off a full-rotation BLM, BRD or MNK. They simply do not have the tools yet.

I won't say one is impossible to happen. That is why they would probably need to tool it a little better. But I am curious as to one thing:

Why do you think it's "Statistically more likely that we dont' have a level 50 tank or healer"? Is this just one of those legendary made up statistics I heard about, or is it just a "Tend you noticed" and I need to take your word for it?

That's a little off-tangent, but if you're going to argue it, I want to know where you get your "Numbers" from.

Faster runs don't necessarily mean BETTER runs. Running a dungeon should be a learning experience for people within the level bracket. What you're suggesting is basically carrying new players through dungeons the way people are carried through the new primals by light farms. You're excising an important part of the learning experience for the sake of speed.

It also enables us to better support the new players. I've had a number of times in level 50 unlevel synched dungouns where me having more gear enabled me to do more. When healing? I can heal and DPS, making up for any deficiencies. With tanking? I can put on more VIT if my healer is weaker, or I can put on STR if I want to push things faster. With DPS? I can physic if my healer goes down (BLM), Res if someone dies (SMN), mitigate damage and self-heal (any other DPS), and at times handle mechanics that others might usually do.

I'm not saying drop us in there at level 50 for a level 15 dungoun. Though if someone wants that? I wouldn't mind them having that option.

Exactly, why give them more ammo?

It's not ammo. And at the same time, you're shooting yourself in the foot. Because you remove people like myself who WOULD go and help people who aren't going to because we dont' consider it fun. In a desperation to protect one subsect, people forget they isolate others.

Truth is I've seen games that go the other route, and it's not very pretty. There's no challenge with a high level in the party since, even with level syncing, they carry their skills with them. CoH was one the games that did this, and even had a mentor/sidekick system that allowed it to work both ways. It was always infinitely more challenging to have a sidekick since the enemies the mentor would fight would be designed for the mentor's abilities, which are progressive, while the sidekick, who may be scaled up, still has their low level abilities.

Yea. I've seen the Scale-up idea a number of times. I agree with you - that is aweful, while level synchs and mentor systems tend to work pretty well because you're weakening players.

[KisaiTenshi]

Hey guys! So one of the larger not-talked-about issues about this game is how Level Sync works.

Now in essence, I love Level Sync! It makes lower level content retain its challenge.

However, there is something that does bother me, and that is that, during a level sync, a character effectively levels down to the level cap of that area. Which would be okay, if it also didn't cause abilities to become unlearned in the process.

Is there any remote possibility that abilities could be removed from the Level Sync equation? Or at least give them a reduced effectiveness instead of removing them entirely? Some jobs, like WHM, SMN, and SCH don't feel very robbed by this, but other jobs, like WAR, PLD, MNK, and DRG get horribly, horribly taken down.

I feel that, if we allowed players to keep their abilities during a level sync, that would increase motivation for players who have gotten all of their jobs to 50 to do Low Level Roulette.

Thank you for reading!

Short answer: NO.

Longer answer: That would require retuning all the dungeons, and make new players absolutely hate non-new players who just faceroll through the dungeon. The skills are not unlearned, they are just not available because you can't use them at that level. Note that cross-class skills don't have this rule. This is why a WHM can't use stoneskin but a SCH can before it would be available for the WHM.

[LunaHoshino]

Having access to our full kits, you're neglecting we get ways to manage our threat. Dragoons recieve elusive jump. Black Mage and Summoner cross-class Quelling Strikes. Monk has naturally low potency strikes to avoid generating large threat and relies on pumping out damage fast to make up for it. Not having access to these skills actually reduces our abilities to reduce threat.

This. I accidentally ripped hate off a low-level tank in Brayflox NM the other day despite trying to be careful. Naturally, when I saw it happen, I hit my Elusive Jump key with the intent of dumping aggro so that the tank could take it back... except oh wait, I can't use that skill at that level. So I had no choice but to just sit there and let the enemy hit me until the tank could grab it back, which meant that the healer had to heal the tank AND me while that was happening.

At least in a higher-level dungeon, if I do rip hate, I can dump it easily and make things easier for the tank. I'm MORE likely to steal aggro in a lower-level dungeon and yet I have no way of mitigating that if it does happen (and it can happen despite being as careful as possible if the tank is not experienced).