Are the Twelve Primals too?

[Frederick22]

But we know something. The Ascians god, Zodiark, from what we have seen so far this summoning( if it is that what the ascians are tring to do) needs something really different than a common primals summoning, ortherwise he would already being summoned.

[myahele]

When it comes to Soul Crystals

A Towa Cant can somehow temporarily revive himself and help the character

Same (kinda) with the DRG soul stone, but to a lesser degree.

To an even lesser extent the Alchemist reviving his dead lover temporarily.

So if A Towa Cant can make himself appear, then perhaps there is some truth in Halone somehow appearing to the Ishgardians?

[Viridiana]

A-Towa-Cant was just a Padjal who lived a few decades ago. He's not a god like Halone is supposed to be.

[Kaiser-Ace]

A-Towa-Cant was just a Padjal who lived a few decades ago. He's not a god like Halone is supposed to be.

Thus giving credit to the idea that there is some sort of life stream. A-Towa-Cant was an indisputably mortal being. Shiva was Human (Or Elzen rather) during her life, and at some point in history Bahamut and Odin were mortal beings with physical bodies as well.

I think the big thing is that Louisoux himself still exists in his mortal incarnation in spirit despite giving up his corporeal body to become the Primal Phoenix. Perhaps all Primals, Eikons, Deities, etc, were physical beings with corporeal forms at one point and their spirits are "Summoned" into a new God Like corporeal form via the Summoning Ritual. (I personally refuse to believe that the Ascians invented it as much as spread the word about it)

So if Haldrith's and A-Towa-Cant's spirits can manifest using the Soul Crystals (Note that they are indeed crystals) and Louisoux continues to exist via his new Aetherial form Phoenix, then it's very likely that the Twelve, Primals, and any thing else that the Garleans have dubbed "Eikon" are spirits of some sort in the Aetherial Plain given a form via summoning but other wise possessing no physical form of their own. It also seemed to be hinted by Uriange that the Ascians are stuck somewhere between the two phases being neither dead not truly alive.

[myahele]

A-Towa-Cant was just a Padjal who lived a few decades ago. He's not a god like Halone is supposed to be.

Which is exactly my question. He was just a mere mortal who helped when needed. But what about a supposed god?

Ultimately, it's pure speculation

[Viridiana]

Hmm. . .with the difference that none of the Eikons we've seen bear much resemblance to any known historical figures, with the exceptions of Louisoix and possibly Bahamut. Even Shiva, known to be based on an Elezen woman of the last millennium and inhabiting the body of an Elezen still alive, becomes something of a caricature. Odin, who may once have been a man, is now the Eikon Zantetsuken, which tempers any who wield it. Leviathan may have been based on a sea serpent (indeed, sea serpents are often confused for him), but there are enough differences to distinguish the two.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that even if someone were to summon the Twelve, they'd be far, far removed from even the appearance of the mortals their myths may have been based on. Whereas A-Towa-Cant seems to be himself upon his manifestation.

[Kaiser-Ace]

Hmm. . .with the difference that none of the Eikons we've seen bear much resemblance to any known historical figures, with the exceptions of Louisoix and possibly Bahamut. Even Shiva, known to be based on an Elezen woman of the last millennium and inhabiting the body of an Elezen still alive, becomes something of a caricature. Odin, who may once have been a man, is now the Eikon Zantetsuken, which tempers any who wield it. Leviathan may have been based on a sea serpent (indeed, sea serpents are often confused for him), but there are enough differences to distinguish the two.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that even if someone were to summon the Twelve, they'd be far, far removed from even the appearance of the mortals their myths may have been based on. Whereas A-Towa-Cant seems to be himself upon his manifestation.

There in lies the difference. Using his link to The White Mage Crystal, A-Towa calls Himself from the aether where as when the beast tribes summon primals they are summoning their Gods in a Warrior form to fight in their name.
Lets say I was the first to summon ifrit in 10,000 years but I just wanted a sage like being to explain things so war would be avoided. Then Ul'dah kicks in the door, kills half of every one, and leave the place in ruins for no good reason. Then when I summon him again I'm not thinking "We'll try being peaceful again" it'll be "Ifrit Great Infernal God of Death! Come forth and burn these heathens and all who side with them to ashes!!!" Then instead of a semi normal form he come this time as a Giant Lizard Monster that, quite successfully, lays waste to every thing in it's path. Thus we get a much more demonic and beast like appearance. Saint Shiva is much the same on that account since she wasn't summoned as a benevolent peace seeker (Like she probably was as a human) she was brought forth as a Warrior Goddess to strike down the Dravanian Sympathisers' persecutors.

But with A-Towa and (Most likely) Haldrith using the Crystal's Memories of them as a Catalyst and your Aether/Corporeal Body (A-Towa being similar to ifrit's Summoning and Haldrith to Shiva's) to call their spirits from the lifestream/Aetherial realm to come forth and take up arms once more in YOUR name.

[Viridiana]

But with A-Towa and (Most likely) Haldrith using the Crystal's Memories of them as a Catalyst and your Aether/Corporeal Body (A-Towa being similar to ifrit's Summoning and Haldrith to Shiva's) to call their spirits from the lifestream/Aetherial realm to come forth and take up arms once more in YOUR name.

So, taking the idea and running with it. . .

Anyone summoned by the will of another will never truly be that person (another's sense of your being will never be the same as your sense of yourself). In your example, neither Ifrit is going to be the "true" Ifrit, because both have been colored by the summoner. But turning that around, we also have no way (barring living contemporaries) to verify that one who summons themself is who they say they are. That is, even if there was a woman upon whom Halone was based, were she to manifest herself she would no more recognize Halone as herself than we would recognize her as Halone.

[Kaiser-Ace]

snip

Basically thats the general idea. With Louisoux and A-Towa being reasonable exception as both are still within living memory so they could be verified.

Louisoux's death was a near 5 years prior and A-Towa's death was only a few decades old. Haldrith would be simmiler to Shiva due to his "Legend" status as there's no one left alive who's ever seen them in person.

[lololink]

Which is exactly my question. He was just a mere mortal who helped when needed. But what about a supposed god?

Ultimately, it's pure speculation

That because a God is only something you name as such.
Ask yourself, what is a god, and I don't think you can find a fix definition.


In Eorzea things called as gods can be two things :
-Eikon/Primal : spirit of a dead brought back through a summoning ritual giving them a body
-Some beings that existed before the first umbral era and disappeared from Hydealyn after the 1st umbral Era ( except Hydealyn ) of course the seconds can be the first too.

Although for the spirit linked to job crystal I think there are two possibilities, either a part or and echo of their soul remain in the job crystal ( that would explain where you get your skills from ) and that's what these spirit are, or they are still connected through the job crystal and can appear if some requirement are completed ( maybe having the echo is part of this ).

As for the Alchemist quest I think it was some kind of modified summoning, it didn't need a body but the spirit was called back thanks to an item dear to the dead woman. It wasn't complete so that's why she couldn't stay long, it was more necromancy ( bring back the soul in the body ) than summoning (call the soul and give it a body of aether ).