DEV REQUEST:DUEL/SPAR system

[Gilthas]

yet you are actively want to deny content?

Well, even ignoring the argument that resouces spent on one piece content can't be spent on other content that people might like more, there is also the issue that adding dueling in the open world does affect the aesthetic of the game. People are allowed to dislike PvP so much that they don't even want to see it.

[raelgun]

Well, even ignoring the argument that resouces spent on one piece content can't be spent on other content that people might like more, there is also the issue that adding dueling in the open world does affect the aesthetic of the game. People are allowed to dislike PvP so much that they don't even want to see it.

That aesthetic is not determined by the players but by the developers or more so Yoshi P in this case who is a fan of PVP, you are just stating the view of how you see this game rather then the devs in that case. People are fine to dislike what they want just how I dislike seeing the circus freak town that glamours has turned this game into but I will never ask for the feature to not be there, I also feel the resources used to make vanity pieces can be used in other parts of the game instead.

[Gilthas]

That aesthetic is not determined by the players but by the developers or more so Yoshi P in this case who is a fan of PVP, you are just stating the view of how you see this game rather then the devs in that case. People are fine to dislike what they want just how I dislike seeing the circus freak town that glamours has turned this game into but I will never ask for the feature to not be there, I also feel the resources used to make vanity pieces can be used in other parts of the game instead.

Apples and Oranges.

Yes, Yoshi-P is a fan of PvP. I also bet that he's a fan of a lot of other stuff too. He's also the director of the game and knows better than just make FFXIV to his own tastes. A glaring example of this is crafting and gathering that he has no interest in yet is still in the game.

You saying that you wouldn't ask for glamours to not be in the game is completely meaningless to this argument, because it's entirely possible that glamours simply don't bother you as much as dueling would bother others.

Here's the thing: I don't like PVP but let's be fair, every one of us has a list of content that we don't play or don't like. The resource argument can be, and is, thrown at everything in this game. The aesthetic complaint can just as easily be applied to the players spamming emotes or actions. For players like us (who will never touch a dueling system), my only request is that, by default, I can't be bothered with it. If it doesn't impact my game play, then it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned.

A lot of arguments can be used for a lot of different things in this game. That doesn't mean that they aren't valid arguments or shouldn't be considered. Just as people are voicing that they want open-world duels, others can voice that they want PvP to continue hidden in instances.

[Teryaani]

A lot of arguments can be used for a lot of different things in this game. That doesn't mean that they aren't valid arguments or shouldn't be considered. Just as people are voicing that they want open-world duels, others can voice that they want PvP to continue hidden in instances.

Sure, but the aesthetic argument you used could just as easily be applied to literally anything else in the game.

"Bikini miqo'tes in Ishgard wrecks the aesthetic "
"Mount spam in Mor Dhona wrecks the aesthetic"
"Lalafells wreck the aesthetic for me"

I'm not disagreeing that you can voice that it annoys you, just realize that your argument will join the above ones (and more) in the chatter that comes from the forums.

Me personally? I have to fight the knee-jerk reaction I have whenever pvp comes up. WPVP abuse in WoW (PVE server mind you) was the reason I left that game. Given the frustration it caused it's hard not to shoot down anything that leans toward WPVP. Everything boils down to one and only one argument: Will this impact my game play? If I can be spammed, then I don't want it. If I can't, then just like the dragoon spamming the pole dance, I'll just pretend it's not there.

[Nalien]

Will this impact my game play? If I can be spammed, then I don't want it. If I can't, then just like the dragoon spamming the pole dance, I'll just pretend it's not there.

Well, so far I've suggested locking requests behind a minimum PvP Rank requirement among other things (having to be on each others Friendslist, similar to Mail Mog, simply having an opt in option that PvEers can simply never check, etc.), though this seems to be something the "No Duels!" crowd insists on ignoring. I imagine that would prevent you from being spammed though?

[Teryaani]

Well, so far I've suggested locking requests behind a minimum PvP Rank requirement among other things (having to be on each others Friendslist, similar to Mail Mog, simply having an opt in option that PvEers can simply never check, etc.), though this seems to be something the "No Duels!" crowd insists on ignoring. I imagine that would prevent you from being spammed though?

"People shouldn't be like cats", but we are. I think it gets worse online because of the lack of any physical feedback (expressions, tone). It's way easier to find a bucket (PVPer, Raider, Casual, etc) and toss people into it then to see a person's argument on it's own merits. I do it all the dang time and it's hard not to do it.

[Teryaani]

Well, even ignoring the argument that resouces spent on one piece content can't be spent on other content that people might like more, there is also the issue that adding dueling in the open world does affect the aesthetic of the game. People are allowed to dislike PvP so much that they don't even want to see it.

Here's the thing: I don't like PVP but let's be fair, every one of us has a list of content that we don't play or don't like. The resource argument can be, and is, thrown at everything in this game. The aesthetic complaint can just as easily be applied to the players spamming emotes or actions. For players like us (who will never touch a dueling system), my only request is that, by default, I can't be bothered with it. If it doesn't impact my game play, then it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned.

[Nalien]

Well, even ignoring the argument that resouces spent on one piece content can't be spent on other content that people might like more, there is also the issue that adding dueling in the open world does affect the aesthetic of the game. People are allowed to dislike PvP so much that they don't even want to see it.

PvP actually has its own little development team, so time spent on PvP content isn't time that would otherwise be spent on PvE content. Scroll up and you'll see my opinion on what PvP content I'd prefer; New Maps or Duels.

Also go back a page or so for an example of the "aesthetic" this game has. Dueling is an active part of Ul'dah society. Main Scenario quest has you actively dueling. Duels seem to be something Adventurers (NPC ones, at least) actively participate in.

And yes, people are allowed to dislike PvP so much that they don't want to see it. You know what though? That means absolutely nothing. Does "I dislike it so nobody can have it!" sound like something a mature person would say? Sounds fairly childish to me. There are plenty of things I dislike in this game that I ignore because other people like them and I'm perfectly fine with them somehow finding enjoyment in things I dislike.

A lot of arguments can be used for a lot of different things in this game. That doesn't mean that they aren't valid arguments or shouldn't be considered. Just as people are voicing that they want open-world duels, others can voice that they want PvP to continue hidden in instances.

Again, instances are the thing we want to get away from with duels. More instance PvP is not what we want, for one thing queues are an issue with instances. Further compounding that issue is splitting PvPers up into multiple queues. The main reason many of us want duels is so we have something (PvP related) to do between queues. Locking it in an instance just completely misses the point.

[Gilthas]

PvP actually has its own little development team, so time spent on PvP content isn't time that would otherwise be spent on PvE content. Scroll up and you'll see my opinion on what PvP content I'd prefer; New Maps or Duels.

I doubt that adding dueling to the open world would only involve the PvP team.

Also go back a page or so for an example of the "aesthetic" this game has. Dueling is an active part of Ul'dah society. Main Scenario quest has you actively dueling. Duels seem to be something Adventurers (NPC ones, at least) actively participate in.

There's a world of a difference between duels in quests and having players duking it out wherever they want.

And yes, people are allowed to dislike PvP so much that they don't want to see it. You know what though? That means absolutely nothing. Does "I dislike it so nobody can have it!" sound like something a mature person would say? Sounds fairly childish to me. There are plenty of things I dislike in this game that I ignore because other people like them and I'm perfectly fine with them somehow finding enjoyment in things I dislike.

Yes that's immature, but going "I want it and I don't care if it affects you!" is so much more mature. Ask for new servers with dueling and I wouldn't argue against it, but forcing players that have zero interest in PvP to suddenly have to deal with dueling is just as selfish.

Again, instances are the thing we want to get away from with duels. More instance PvP is not what we want, for one thing queues are an issue with instances. Further compounding that issue is splitting PvPers up into multiple queues.

Easy fix with the queue issue: allow two players or groups to queue together to fight each other (something that already existed in FFXI).

[Nalien]

Yes that's immature, but going "I want it and I don't care if it affects you!" is so much more mature.

Dude, I have gone out of my way to suggest duels in a way that PvE players would simply not be impacted. Perhaps if some of you actually acknowledged those points and tried to counter them (if you can), I'd be more incline to take your arguments seriously.

Unless your line of argument really boils down to "I don't want to see two people dueling at all!", in which case sure... My "Grow the fuck up" certainly doesn't come off as mature either, but then I'm having a hard time understanding the frankly absurd argument here. You're all acting like duels would suddenly become some common place thing, instead of something rarer than people doing Treasure Maps or Hunts. How often have Treasure Maps/Hunts interfered with peoples game play?

A more apt comparison that does involve others is gilsellers. Noone asks to receive gilseller /tells or friend requests, noone goes to towns looking to have their chat populated with gilseller /shouts, /yells or /says. Noone asks for any of it. Open world duels would be just that, PvPers looking for people to /duel, getting people who may or may not want any part of it involved. And just the remote chance of harassment from a refused or blocked /duel is one chance too many.

Lets go back to something I said earlier, and you all ignored earlier, because you're all so insistent on ignoring the restrictions we've suggested for duels;

You really think people are going to persist in going "Add me to your Friendlist and go do this quest and get Rank 10 in PvP so I can duel you, chicken!"? You really think that would be a thing? Really? Even if it was, that is what my Blacklist is for, albeit is currently a glorified RMT directory. That is what GMs are for. That is what numerous suggestions in this thread have been for, that you're ignoring in favour of going "But this Korean MMO had problems!".