Dark knights and progression

[Marxam]

You guys forget that DRK can mitigate magic better than the two current tanks and is built around magic. So assuming ppl get good with DRK fast then it might be PLD/DRK for prog then for farm WAR/DRK, and this is if DRK can put out as much damage if not more than WAR. Though I'm not sure what else it could add other than stacking previous buffs SE, SP, RoH, of the current tanks.

[Casper]

I doubt that PLD will be replaced as MT for anything serious. The fact that they use a shield means they take currently ~10% less damage than someone without one, and this will only get better with better shields ; that helps a lot their position as a MT. The other thing is, PLD reason to exist is to be the sturdy shield of the party ; they have an awesome collection of defensive CD that is only bound to get better with the expansion. Even though we do not know much about DRK, they will NOT have as good a CD collectiona s PLD, because then the two of them would be too close in design.


That means that while i could see specific instances where DRK is the best MT (like DRK is the best MT for some rare bosses), in most cases, PLD will probably remain the MT of choice for hard progression content. Note that for easier content, who cares ? Everything will go.

As for OT, currently a warrior offers several interesting things. Thing is, their DPS as OT is nothing particular; the only thing great about their DPS is the fact that when they need to pick up tanking every now and then, they will do much more damage than a PLD while in tank stance, since every 2 minutes they can totally negate their damage reduction. They offer some sweet utility with storm's eye and storm parth, but honestly, it is really easy to see DRK offering different but as valuable utility.

In fact, it is likely that they will not compete on what a war is good at either -- which is DPS while in tank stance, especially when not asked to be in it constantly.

Based on all this, my guess would be this: DRK will be best used as an offtank, like WAR, and will provide higher utility / versatility than a WAR, at the cost of a reduced damage output in tank stance. Both PLD/DRK and PLD/WAR combos will be viable, and the mileage of groups may vary between the two.

[SpookyGhost]

PLD/WAR = Progression
WAR/DRK = Farm

Just guessing, but that's how I see it playing out. We'll have 2 weeks to play around with DRK before normal Alex, then 2 weeks to try DRK out in normal Alex before Savage is released. If DRK is viable for whatever position, we'll know when Alex Savage releases.

[Alphras]

As long as Square doesn't botch the job completely our PLD will move to DRK. WAR could already MT the whole FCOB progression (which only really means T13) without any problem so we will be fine.

And even if they botch it they have enough time till Alexander Savage to fix it.

[Risvertasashi]

As long as Square doesn't botch the job completely our PLD will move to DRK. WAR could already MT the whole FCOB progression (which only really means T13) without any problem so we will be fine.

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

Back to the main topic: PLD is the turtle tank and will likely get more turtle abilities with the expansion. I think it has a good chance of staying as the go to MT for progression. But, once more, we can't actually know until we have specifics.

[Alphras]

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

Back to the main topic: PLD is the turtle tank and will likely get more turtle abilities with the expansion. I think it has a good chance of staying as the go to MT for progression. But, once more, we can't actually know until we have specifics.

Well we did. There is not really much of a difference between WAR and PLD MT in T13, except that the Healers need to know how to handle Holmgang, if you want to use to cheese one flatten/flare breath combo in the first phase, and that the WAR has it easier managing cooldowns later on.

Edit: There is no big difference between healing a good WAR and a good PLD in general anyway (except HG vs Holmgang of course). PLD taking less damage is a huge misconception. It all depends on the timing of the fight.

The main problem for WAR is that Flatten happens every 50s-ish, as opposed to every 60. This forces the WAR into a situation where he cant rotate Veng -> Thrill + Conv w/ IB and has to use other CDs (including Infuriate) very carefully. The WAR will undoubtedly take more damage from Flattens because of this, on top of PLD being able to ignore 1 Flatten entirely, so for progression (and damage not being an issue) PLD would be the superior choice.

We never ran into this problem, since we tank swapped for each flatten in the first phase, which made it a joke concerning tank damage. But you are right, the CD management in a 50s window is more difficult for a WAR.

You can also ignore one flatten/flare breath combo with Holmgang, but your healers need to know what they are doing.

[Gildarts]

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

again this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PY-YQtUYA

A skilled group in Excalibur they use WAR MT for progression

[Risvertasashi]

again this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PY-YQtUYA

A skilled group in Excalibur they use WAR MT for progression

That is pretty impressive. That WAR was pretty awesome with his CDs, although, that second flatten/flare combo was cutting it very close all the same.

I don't disagree that world first elite players will stick to WAR/PLD. But they may find that DRK usurps one of those.

I don't know. We have several weeks before the new raids become available; it's fast enough for HC players, or just with HC leanings, to easy grind up the class. Some of the finer points of the class's techniques might not come out for a while but, if the class is solid, it's plenty of time for leading raiders to pick it up and toss it into the mix.

[Nutz]

It's pretty difficult to say without knowing any DRK abilities at this point, nevermind the fact that there are several unknown abilities between PLD and WAR that will also be in the mix at 60.

From the looks of it (which isn't much) DRK will be more similar to WAR than PLD, and PLD and WAR will likely get new abilities that fit their current repertoire nicely. It's unlikely that PLD will gain mostly damaging abilities while WAR gains mostly defensive ones, for instance. I'd think that this means PLD +WAR/DRK will be the most likely combination, but who knows? WAR+DRK might offer some very interesting utility perhaps.

[Arkenne]

Well, from the one defensive skill shown by the PLD in the benchmark, I see it pretty hard for them to be removed... I mean, they have a frigging new shield that actually shield things?! :/!!

What if it can null an AoE damage in a certain zone or protect anyone behind the PLD? The strategy potential of something like that would be hardly replaceable if at all.