DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Jamein]

All you are trying to do is brush a counter - view aside with a specific requirement that has no significance on the discussion at hand.

I am dismissing your argument for one reason and one reason alone. You are making assumptions based on a different game, and a different community. Just like everyone else within this thread is.
I also gave you a specific example of how a method of measuring someones level of experience was used in one game, but is different in this game. I'm not simply brushing you off, I am giving you examples to prove why your argument falls flat. Meanwhile you've said nothing more than, 'but this is what used to happen'. I'm all for debate if you've got something more relevant to the conversation.

I understand that there will more than likely be a very small minority who abuse the parsing data and ask for absurd numbers for groups, but those people are the ones you avoid in PF anyway because they also ask for ilvl 130 for titan ex and scream '1 mistake = kick'. Not everyone is perfect, but are we to keep a useful and informative tool away from the rest of the playerbase because a small amount of players take it too far?

I am basing my opinion on the experiences I have had in THIS game, with THIS community.

By your logic I should stay away from seafood as this one time I ate some salmon and my insides burned for a week, therefore all salmon is bad and will make me relive those horrific days of toilet websurfing and ring sting.

The past is the past, you can learn from it, but it doesn't mean everything plays out exactly the same. Different time, different community different game. Leave your bias at the door and focus on how that information is being used right now, not how you think it might be used because this one time someone said you suck back in 2001.

[SDaemon]

No I'm basing it off my experience which includes this community. A community that includes more than just end game raiders who would use an in game parser.

You haven't given me any valid argument why my opinion holds less weight and you and I have never even discussed with each other yet about parser because for the last several pages I've been telling you and another how your deflecting is flawed.

If you actually want to finally discuss the impact of parsers and how it should be implemented rather than brush things aside, I'd be happy to post and discuss with you after work.

[Jamein]

snip

Maybe I am reading this wrong here, but are you basing it off of the community that actually uses parsers, that you've played with (mainly in end game as that is where parsers are used the most)? Or simply off the community and how you THINK they will use parsers based on how other games communities used them. That's where I find your argument to fall short.


If you have some actual experience in FF where you've found yourself or others kicked from groups due to someone parsing saying your DPS was too low, and this happens often. Then we have something to go on here as you've clearly experienced a negative side to it. However from what I've read here, and again if I have mis-read it then correct me, but you are saying you've experienced the end game in other games or parsing in other games, and that's good enough to throw into a discussion here. in which case I would argue that's more of a discussion for the psychology/philosophy forums as to why humans act like they do, and I guess we will just never ever see eye to eye on that one because as I said, I'm taking my observations on parsing, from the people who use parsers in THIS game, in THIS community.

As I've said, from my experience the people who go overboard with the parsers are in a very small minority, especially those in PF groups. It just doesn't happen much. Those are the same people who have unrealistic ilvl requirements and who are generally players you tend to avoid in any case. One or two bad eggs don't represent the community as a whole.

As for the impact of parsers, this is what I am discussing now as I am giving you examples of how it is being used and how it is effecting the community. With regards to the implementation, there are a million and one ways for this and I get that this is probably the hardest thing to keep everyone happy. Is it a personal parser? Is it group wide? Is it PF only and disabled in DF? is it only available in end game? Should there be a top 10 leaderboard for each class per encounter so people have a reference point of what they should be parsing? Etc etc.

Personally I think they should just lift the so called 'ban' on the current parsers and let them be used and talked about freely. Literally minimal effort on SE's part. The only downside to this is PS3/4 users get shunned.

This is a matter of perspective. I've seen people require ilvl for farms that's higher than what drops within that instance. I've seen as high as ilvl 120 requirement for T9, and a good amount of ilvl 130 for T13 (which is impossible for my gear setup, mind you).

See above.

[siverstorm]

As I've said, from my experience the people who go overboard with the parsers are in a very small minority, especially those in PF groups. It just doesn't happen much. Those are the same people who have unrealistic ilvl requirements and who are generally players you tend to avoid in any case. One or two bad eggs don't represent the community as a whole.

This point gets glazed over and ignored more often than it should.

[Welsper59]

This point gets glazed over and ignored more often than it should.

I think it needs to be pointed out that the one or two bad eggs (grossly underestimated number btw) are the ones who are always the most noticeable. Bad behavior is always going to stand out. It just takes one person/group to ruin everything for everyone else out of fear of potential recurrence. This happens in every facet of life, so a video game community is no exception. I mean, look at the TT tournaments and the effect win-trading has on it. All it took was a minimum of 1-3 people to technically ruin it for everyone. It's because of this minority that SE needed to begin taking steps to get around it.

Look at the effect that negative players have on DF. Many of us will say "they don't represent the community as a whole", which is true, but just those handful of people are enough to make us aware of their potentially being there. The people they have already affected have been exposed to this pathetic side, and as a result, we're also made aware of the occurrence. Yeah, they may not represent everyone, but they affect everyone far more than the majority. That's why people tend to not bother addressing that... it should be self-explanatory when you think about it.

[siverstorm]

snip

Given our past discussion I don't feel like responding to you, not when you slowly degraded to exceptionally subtle personal insults in your last comments (can't wait to be called oversensitive or something on this one). It's not worth anyone's time or energy having to deal with someone who acts like that. After this I'm not going to respond to you.

We also have tanks and healers that hold runs hostage or intentionally troll runs with the knowledge of how long it takes for a replacement to appear should they get kicked (spoiler alert: a really long bloody time). One or two bad eggs in that situation, yet people cry and moan about the possible parser harassment as if literally everyone is going to do it.

If you let one or two bad eggs define your entire experience how are you even able to manage playing online games? Trolls are a dime a dozen no matter what you play.

You also forget if someone is openly harassing you about your dps and acting like a total fool belittling you, the group can kick that person. If you're actually playing so poorly that the group would rather keep the rude player than you then maybe you should try figuring out what's wrong? Maybe try improving? :O



To avoid that confrontation with a single troll in the future your options are:
a) Quit the game because one meanie hurt your precious feelings
b) I don't know, learn how to play semi-competently?
c) Remain blissfully ignorant.

How many people quit the game because of a single troll they encounted in an online game? If everyone was that fickle the concept of "online gaming" would've died years ago.

Also: TT tourneys are still flawed, win traders can still get top 3 for nothing, the steps SE took for that have yet to show promise. Too bad we can't vote kick people from them.

[Khemorex]

People lack respect nowadays it seems :P

That goes for both sides ^^

[Welsper59]

Trolls are a dime a dozen no matter what you play.

I just really wanted to point out that this saying implies they are the majority here as well LOL. This outright contradicts your agreement of the "one or two bad eggs" bit. Your argument shouldn't be focused on "one or two", as though it were rare, if you really believe trolls to be so common (which is something I agree with), since it completely contradicts your attempt to belittle how often bad behavior occurs.

The rest of your quote is on the defensive from this perspective. It's hard to find agreement with it, without overlooking your earlier approach of it being such a rare occurrence lol. If I do that, however, then I can almost fully agree with what you said just now lol. Although, I do outright agree about the TT stuff being flawed still. But Yoshi-P said it himself, it's a work-in-progress approach, which they might have just given up on for now since there were supposed to be more changes in 2.56 lol. What we have now was not intended to stop it, just be a band-aid fix to promoting more participation and make people still want to at least try, even if they won't rank (since trying = more MGP and plat cards). I'm assuming they won't act to punish win-trades, as nothing happened with the PvP situation, but just to get participation going and hopefully prevent bad habits somewhere down the line (that ones probably not going to happen).

As a side note, I don't recall making any insults about you on a personal level, even if subtle. I tend to try to criticize arguments, and maybe give examples that result from those arguments, more often than the person. If I did that, then apologies. I'd really like to know what it was I said though, if you can recall it. I do have a habit of being condescending towards arguments presented, and it can sometimes transition over depending on how close to home it hits for the other person.

[SDaemon]

snip

I don't see how you could have played through dungeons, CT, ST, WoD, EX primals and more and not seen the players who would go overboard with parse-ring in there.

It is more than one or two bad eggs. That is a horrible underestimation. Is it everyone? No, hardly. But to downplay it like that is no better than over-reacting and saying it is everyone.

I know how parsers are used, XIV doesn't use them in some new and innovative way, and you just described how the "Don't ask, don't tell" philosophy of Yoshi's is affecting the community, not the open, free and public use of it, where everyone is given and held to one whether they like it or not.

And I have and will still continue to argue that a personal parser is just fine for people to improve their skills, while a toggle for public will allow PF groups, and friends, striving to clear with a means to gauge the group.