DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Welsper59]

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

It's unfortunately acceptable because it's the least impacting role. Mind you, the majority of content in this game can be beaten by mediocre players regardless of role (or perhaps, some mediocre players for certain endgame content that isn't max tier). At this point in time, would you really take the time of kicking a bad DPS that has little impact on your actual progress of the instance you've ran at least 50 times already? We already let people slide sometimes in content, for example in LotA. I've had healers, tanks, and dps AFK from start to finish at the starting point. The reason? It's impossible to kick them in a rush group that just wants to get things done. Initial timer, mid-combat, and loot still being rolled on prevents kicking.

The only notable time you'd really care about output is actual endgame max tier (see actually difficult) content. Tanking and healing requires a lot more personal responsibility, hence why they stand out the most. DPS are a dime a dozen. In those cases, people already parse, so responsibility is there on the DPS end. It's not a matter of parsers saving people from this, it's the content at hand. If every single thing required a strict DPS check, FFXIV wouldn't be the open arms game it is. That's why it's acceptable.

Oh hell yeah. I've been saying that since page 5 on this thread and I'm a DPS main, haha. Didn't get a response until I started getting more blunt and even then it was the standard "qq toxic community" response. Hell, Massterchef said the exact same thing I did (calling the heal/tank issue a double standard) a few pages back and was met with nonsensical arguments the entire ride through.

The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

[siverstorm]

The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

That's a cop-out reason though. And making a pessimistic assumption that literally everyone will be using it maliciously. That still ignores the fact that your so called "witch hunt" EXISTS in the non-progression endgame content, nevermind the actual hardcore raiding content in the game. We were also talking about how tanks and healers can get flak even for a minor fumble (lost aggro, death from unavoidable damage, etc). If a tank or healer isn't performing to standard then it's impacting even the faceroll content. The whole point is that it shouldn't be acceptable but you're saying "it is what it is, people can be malicious as all hell to tanks and healers but who cares about dps". It's not okay that we can crucify one side and ignore the other lol.

And again, I'm already not kicking the piss poor augmented ironworks dps that I'm beating on my Yagrush WHM in trivial content. But maybe a sanctioned parser can help them see that they're not performing well at all.

Rambling aside, I fully support parsers for 14. In my views the positives outweigh the negatives, yes people are going to whine and complain about DPS, but in reality, they're already complaining about other things you and other people are doing/not doing. If these people get under your skin, blacklist/report/move on please

^

[Welsper59]

That's a cop-out reason though. And making a pessimistic assumption that literally everyone will be using it maliciously. That still ignores the fact that your so called "witch hunt" EXISTS in the non-progression endgame content, nevermind the actual hardcore raiding content in the game. We were also talking about how tanks and healers can get flak even for a minor fumble (lost aggro, death from unavoidable damage, etc). If a tank or healer isn't performing to standard then it's impacting even the faceroll content. The whole point is that it shouldn't be acceptable but you're saying "it is what it is, people can be malicious as all hell to tanks and healers but who cares about dps". It's not okay that we can crucify one side and ignore the other lol.

And again, I'm already not kicking the piss poor augmented ironworks dps that I'm beating on my Yagrush WHM in trivial content. But maybe a sanctioned parser can help them see that they're not performing well at all.

As I said... it's the design of combat that results in DPS getting a slide usually, NOT the lack of an official parser. Think about it? What happens when you throw in MORE people to a situation (e.g. CT raids)? Your individual presence is no longer as important. In smaller content, let's say 4-man content. There is only 1 healer to keep people alive, and 1 tank to keep people alive. They have more responsibility to the party than DPS do in order to prevent death.

What if 4-man parties comprised of 1 DPS, 2 heals, and 1 tank? Lets also just assume healers can't DPS for some mysterious reason (magic!!). Who's gonna stand out there? The tank? Sure. Only 1 like normal, afterall. The healer? Probably not since that'd be WAY too much potential healing with current content. The DPS? Most definitely... that ONE DPS is on spotlight to get the target down reasonably quick. It's rarely okay to ridicule others, regardless of role. Just like the more popular people (e.g. celebrities) stand out IRL, and thus they'll have haters, so too do the roles that stand out the most. You will be judged and criticized because we, as human beings, are pitiful when it comes to that.

With the holy trinity design, it literally puts the spotlight and significant responsibility upon the tanks and healers. The DPS, in most MMORPGs with this format, are run of the mill expectations. Nothing critical about them. That is BY DESIGN with that format. This is a significant reason why people steer away from the roles. They have A LOT of responsibility that DPS do not... again, by design. Why do you think people rarely pay attention to DPS in regards to commendation handouts usually going to heals/tanks? There's a reason for that, just so you know.

The fact you actually think that that reason is a cop-out, SCREAMS that you're ignoring everything logical to push an irrelevant want (i.e. parsers in this topic). The witch hunt comment indeed holds true with what you've stated so far, but I want to specifically point out that it's now also in regards to what you will do with official parsers. Outside of raids like Coil, I don't think there's really a necessity for a parser to exist. It's not like it's impossible to do typical DF instances outside of it, afterall.

[siverstorm]

The fact you actually think that that reason is a cop-out, SCREAMS that you're ignoring everything logical to push an irrelevant want (i.e. parsers in this topic). The witch hunt comment indeed holds true with what you've stated so far, but I want to specifically point out that it's now also in regards to what you will do with official parsers. Outside of raids like Coil, I don't think there's really a necessity for a parser to exist. It's not like it's impossible to do typical DF instances outside of it, afterall.

Logical? Defending the frail feelings of dps players in this game is logical? This is the double standard lol. Everything you've said SCREAMS "no, don't attack the dps for being terrible, but tanks and healers? To the wolves". That's absolutely ridiculous.

Also I'm not going to comment on your example of the two healer party because you're making the unrealistic assumption that the content wouldn't be tuned appropriately. Or the fact that it's a common occurrence to go into experts with i100+ dps that can't even break 200 to save their lives. Making runs as slow and painful as you say.

And I've said it several times already, I won't be kicking out the players in 110+ somehow hitting less than the Shield Oats paladin. But with a sanctioned parser I don't have to worry about getting banned and can comment or offer suggestions. If it's a situation where it's met with attitude then it would end up VERY MUCH THE SAME WAY PEOPLE BELITTLE/HARASS/ATTACK HEALERS AND TANKS IF THEY FUMBLE. Why is this such a difficult concept for you? The dps shouldn't be exempt from this "just because". That's a ridiculous reason and just reaffirms my point that there's a double standard.

But of course I guess it's fine. Let the dps autoattack and afk in dungeons, their feelings are too sensitive. Since that's the mindset 90% of the anti-parsers have in this thread. Afraid to see the reality if they're playing abysmally. Even the suggestion of the "DmC score screen" how many Ds and Cs should the dps see before they clue in? They should start tuning all the dungeons to be survivable with 4 dps doing less than 200 each. Since people with your mindset are part of the reason why most players dislike tanking and healing in this game, let's just remove them entirely, sounds like jolly good fun.

[Welsper59]

snip

Uhh... yeah, there's a double standard. I've reaffirmed it myself in what I said and have never stated otherwise. What seems like defending bad players is actually a reason why things are how they are. You keep ignoring that though, I guess because I'm not literally saying that, word for word, like I just did now. I'm pointing out to you the reason the double standard exists (and will ALWAYS exist in the current setup of this game) and why merely adding a parser is not going to change a single meaningful thing. The tank/heal/dps exclusive setup will always put the spotlight on tanks and healers WAY more than DPS will ever see, as far as accountability goes. That is simply how we respond to the holy trinity setup (namely because its singling out a minimal number of players to fulfill an important role). Why basic design concept and the psychology behind how we treat it is difficult to grasp is beyond me... actually, it's not. It's expected on the internet lol.

Believe me, a parser is not going to suddenly change the majority of bad dps into decent ones. A handful, sure, but you'll still come across bad ones at nearly the same frequency. It's the nature of modern MMORPGs. They also won't suddenly be excellent DPS during your run as well. If they're not willing to put in the effort to begin with, which is honestly the more common case (i.e. not giving a damn to "learn" their rotations/priorities or they're just being lazy in their i130 gear), they won't care what you say even if you single them out. Calm down and clear your mind a bit, you might be able to read between the lines easier if you stop to think.

The witch hunt comment btw does not exclusively involve looking for people to kick. A witch hunt, in general, just means you're actively looking for someone to single out. I'm not claiming you're going to kick them or mistreat people, I'm just stating that you're going to be hunting for people doing something relatively harmless but not up to par, even if it may not be necessary to do so. There's no need to police your fellow players where it might not be needed. This is partly a dev philosophy as well, which is why we don't see heavy DPS checks in what we consider simple content.

[siverstorm]

snip

You can say I'm "ignoring it" all you want. A parser will help to bring it to light, but your responses say you don't want it because of the toxic nature that could come about it...which I'm saying is no better than the same attitude the other two thirds of your holy trinity experience. This is also bringing it to an extreme as if literally everyone is going to go on vote kick sprees. Me having an expectation of dps to hit their own 1-2-3 in the right order isn't much more than my expectations of a tank to hold aggro or a healer to heal. I don't go into dungeons and expect everyone to pull 600 dps...that's asinine.

If they were held accountable for it some would start to perform better bringing up the average. I shouldn't have to run into a dungeon and pray at least one of the dps can do their job at least semi-competently, but sad reality is that we have to. Maybe if no job was safe from scrutiny people would be more apt to playing tanks and healers.

No one is saying that a parser is going to magically improve everyone overnight. Originally I was only for the sanctioned parser in the content where it matters (ex and coil). But after the discussion brought the concept into trivial content every single one of your responses has boiled down to "the double standard exists just because". I dunno about you but any point you have falls flat without a real reason backing it up. In this situation we should just have the sanctioned parser for everything to reduce this double standard.

I am fairly calm, I just wish you had a valid reason to your counter argument.

[Welsper59]

You can say I'm "ignoring it" all you want. A parser will help to bring it to light, but your responses say you don't want it because of the toxic nature that could come about it...which I'm saying is no better than the same attitude the other two thirds of your holy trinity experience. This is also bringing it to an extreme as if literally everyone is going to go on vote kick sprees. Me having an expectation of dps to hit their own 1-2-3 in the right order isn't much more than my expectations of a tank to hold aggro or a healer to heal. I don't go into dungeons and expect everyone to pull 600 dps...that's asinine.

If they were held accountable for it some would start to perform better bringing up the average. I shouldn't have to run into a dungeon and pray at least one of the dps can do their job at least semi-competently, but sad reality is that we have to. Maybe if no job was safe from scrutiny people would be more apt to playing tanks and healers.

No one is saying that a parser is going to magically improve everyone overnight. Originally I was only for the sanctioned parser in the content where it matters (ex and coil). But after the discussion brought the concept into trivial content every single one of your responses has boiled down to "the double standard exists just because". I dunno about you but any point you have falls flat without a real reason backing it up. In this situation we should just have the sanctioned parser for everything to reduce this double standard.

I am fairly calm, I just wish you had a valid reason to your counter argument.

I guess the way the mind works (i.e. science) is not valid with you people. That's fine. I mean, that's exactly how people/businesses can sway others to react to something in a desired way eventually lol. Many people wouldn't have jobs if that weren't the case. Again though, it's not about the vote kick thing, it's about the outcomes for the players personal impressions. I'm also not saying you're going to expect big numbers or anything.

I'm saying you'll literally take the time, if you don't already, to actively check if people are doing what they should as far as their performance is concerned... irrelevant to whether or not things are acceptably fine. That's a psychological habit though, so that's not surprising. Not just you, of course, but a great number of people will be taking the time to do the same unfortunately. DPS should be held accountable, but the perspective that people are literally going to be watching out for a bad DPS simply to judge, since it's not as obvious to judge like a tank or healers role, is already a bad thing. The old school way of determining problematic DPS, like harsh DPS checks all over the place, serves the role a lot better IMO. That unfortunately destroys the games direction though.

And I do agree that if scrutiny was not a possibility, people would be more apt to playing the more focused roles of tanks and healers. It is though, as I said, because the spotlight is defaulted to them (their roles are much more important than DPS usually and they're outnumbered).

[Sapphic]

It's unfortunately acceptable because it's the least impacting role. Mind you, the majority of content in this game can be beaten by mediocre players regardless of role

That's only because the majority overgear the content when it's new. If you had played or remember before AK got nerfed, on demon wall, everyone had to play to a decent standard to be able to progress past it. There where many tanks fishing for 2/3 progression exactly because of demon wall and the bees.

Then came Pharos Sirius, which required a certain level of ability by players to clear. Which turned into Pharos vote abandon, Steps of Faith require a little bit of coordination, it is now labelld as Steps of vote abandon.

The first 3 have already been nerfed due to mediocre players in ability or disinjterest in improving to beat that challenge. A personal parser may kick them into reality that they are not performing at the standard required to clear content like that. Instead of thinking they are are then taking the easy path and complaining on the forums for nerfs.

Hell, first week of the 3.5 dungeons players where crying on the forums that they are "too hard".