DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[LunaHoshino]

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

[Zaft]

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

Because we can't have anybody with hurt feelings.

[MirielleLavandre]

Because we can't have any DPS with hurt feelings.

Fixed it a lil. As a WHM I can get kicked, yelled at, and harassed if I don't do my job, just like a tank can. As others have said, it isn't fair that dps can just slide by under everyones radar since there is no way to legally tell them they are doing poor dps. DPS players know this -- which is why you'll see people having sub 200 numbers in i130 gear even in easy content like WoD...

I see this all the time in experts if I PUG them (hardly ever) -- tank does a rather large pull, I set up to Holy spam, PoM Holy, but the group that normally would be dead in 30-35 secs stays alive for well over a minute. Examine dps - they're in i130 -- so obviously it isn't a gear issue... but god forbid I try to point out rotations...(this using BLM for context). There's no bar to hold DPS to in this game, sadly, that can be used as a metric to gauge performance

[VargasVermillion]

Fixed it a lil. As a WHM I can get kicked, yelled at, and harassed if I don't do my job, just like a tank can. As others have said, it isn't fair that dps can just slide by under everyones radar since there is no way to legally tell them they are doing poor dps. DPS players know this -- which is why you'll see people having sub 200 numbers in i130 gear even in easy content like WoD...

On a more positive note, it would be nice to have a harder time giving commendations if I can see exactly how well the other 2 to 4 players did in a run. The people that complain about parsers must be the same ones who are too afraid to tank or heal.

[Warlyx]

Fixed it a lil. As a WHM I can get kicked, yelled at, and harassed if I don't do my job, just like a tank can. As others have said, it isn't fair that dps can just slide by under everyones radar since there is no way to legally tell them they are doing poor dps. DPS players know this -- which is why you'll see people having sub 200 numbers in i130 gear even in easy content like WoD...

i have seen more than 1 healer go afk for some trials and WoD , maybe a heal here and there , but afk 90% of the time and no1 dies , easy content is easy.

every boss has some DPS check mechanic in form of adds , or burst phase , and u can see if dps failed thanks to that. Too bad u can focus all your rage on a single DPS eh? :P

Tanks have it harder , since u cant go afk or lazy mode (well in some encounters u can , nearly all the primals are 1 tank only now)

[loldrg]

Tanks have it harder , since u cant go afk or lazy mode (well in some encounters u can , nearly all the primals are 1 tank only now

A fight being solo tanked means there's actually less margin for laziness or errors. Titan, Ramuh, Shiva are all likely wipes if the tank makes a mistake leading to their death.

The last 'lazy' fight for tanks was Titan Hard Mode or Labyrinth.

[Welsper59]

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

It's unfortunately acceptable because it's the least impacting role. Mind you, the majority of content in this game can be beaten by mediocre players regardless of role (or perhaps, some mediocre players for certain endgame content that isn't max tier). At this point in time, would you really take the time of kicking a bad DPS that has little impact on your actual progress of the instance you've ran at least 50 times already? We already let people slide sometimes in content, for example in LotA. I've had healers, tanks, and dps AFK from start to finish at the starting point. The reason? It's impossible to kick them in a rush group that just wants to get things done. Initial timer, mid-combat, and loot still being rolled on prevents kicking.

The only notable time you'd really care about output is actual endgame max tier (see actually difficult) content. Tanking and healing requires a lot more personal responsibility, hence why they stand out the most. DPS are a dime a dozen. In those cases, people already parse, so responsibility is there on the DPS end. It's not a matter of parsers saving people from this, it's the content at hand. If every single thing required a strict DPS check, FFXIV wouldn't be the open arms game it is. That's why it's acceptable.

Oh hell yeah. I've been saying that since page 5 on this thread and I'm a DPS main, haha. Didn't get a response until I started getting more blunt and even then it was the standard "qq toxic community" response. Hell, Massterchef said the exact same thing I did (calling the heal/tank issue a double standard) a few pages back and was met with nonsensical arguments the entire ride through.

The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

[siverstorm]

The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

That's a cop-out reason though. And making a pessimistic assumption that literally everyone will be using it maliciously. That still ignores the fact that your so called "witch hunt" EXISTS in the non-progression endgame content, nevermind the actual hardcore raiding content in the game. We were also talking about how tanks and healers can get flak even for a minor fumble (lost aggro, death from unavoidable damage, etc). If a tank or healer isn't performing to standard then it's impacting even the faceroll content. The whole point is that it shouldn't be acceptable but you're saying "it is what it is, people can be malicious as all hell to tanks and healers but who cares about dps". It's not okay that we can crucify one side and ignore the other lol.

And again, I'm already not kicking the piss poor augmented ironworks dps that I'm beating on my Yagrush WHM in trivial content. But maybe a sanctioned parser can help them see that they're not performing well at all.

Rambling aside, I fully support parsers for 14. In my views the positives outweigh the negatives, yes people are going to whine and complain about DPS, but in reality, they're already complaining about other things you and other people are doing/not doing. If these people get under your skin, blacklist/report/move on please

^

[Welsper59]

That's a cop-out reason though. And making a pessimistic assumption that literally everyone will be using it maliciously. That still ignores the fact that your so called "witch hunt" EXISTS in the non-progression endgame content, nevermind the actual hardcore raiding content in the game. We were also talking about how tanks and healers can get flak even for a minor fumble (lost aggro, death from unavoidable damage, etc). If a tank or healer isn't performing to standard then it's impacting even the faceroll content. The whole point is that it shouldn't be acceptable but you're saying "it is what it is, people can be malicious as all hell to tanks and healers but who cares about dps". It's not okay that we can crucify one side and ignore the other lol.

And again, I'm already not kicking the piss poor augmented ironworks dps that I'm beating on my Yagrush WHM in trivial content. But maybe a sanctioned parser can help them see that they're not performing well at all.

As I said... it's the design of combat that results in DPS getting a slide usually, NOT the lack of an official parser. Think about it? What happens when you throw in MORE people to a situation (e.g. CT raids)? Your individual presence is no longer as important. In smaller content, let's say 4-man content. There is only 1 healer to keep people alive, and 1 tank to keep people alive. They have more responsibility to the party than DPS do in order to prevent death.

What if 4-man parties comprised of 1 DPS, 2 heals, and 1 tank? Lets also just assume healers can't DPS for some mysterious reason (magic!!). Who's gonna stand out there? The tank? Sure. Only 1 like normal, afterall. The healer? Probably not since that'd be WAY too much potential healing with current content. The DPS? Most definitely... that ONE DPS is on spotlight to get the target down reasonably quick. It's rarely okay to ridicule others, regardless of role. Just like the more popular people (e.g. celebrities) stand out IRL, and thus they'll have haters, so too do the roles that stand out the most. You will be judged and criticized because we, as human beings, are pitiful when it comes to that.

With the holy trinity design, it literally puts the spotlight and significant responsibility upon the tanks and healers. The DPS, in most MMORPGs with this format, are run of the mill expectations. Nothing critical about them. That is BY DESIGN with that format. This is a significant reason why people steer away from the roles. They have A LOT of responsibility that DPS do not... again, by design. Why do you think people rarely pay attention to DPS in regards to commendation handouts usually going to heals/tanks? There's a reason for that, just so you know.

The fact you actually think that that reason is a cop-out, SCREAMS that you're ignoring everything logical to push an irrelevant want (i.e. parsers in this topic). The witch hunt comment indeed holds true with what you've stated so far, but I want to specifically point out that it's now also in regards to what you will do with official parsers. Outside of raids like Coil, I don't think there's really a necessity for a parser to exist. It's not like it's impossible to do typical DF instances outside of it, afterall.

[siverstorm]

The fact you actually think that that reason is a cop-out, SCREAMS that you're ignoring everything logical to push an irrelevant want (i.e. parsers in this topic). The witch hunt comment indeed holds true with what you've stated so far, but I want to specifically point out that it's now also in regards to what you will do with official parsers. Outside of raids like Coil, I don't think there's really a necessity for a parser to exist. It's not like it's impossible to do typical DF instances outside of it, afterall.

Logical? Defending the frail feelings of dps players in this game is logical? This is the double standard lol. Everything you've said SCREAMS "no, don't attack the dps for being terrible, but tanks and healers? To the wolves". That's absolutely ridiculous.

Also I'm not going to comment on your example of the two healer party because you're making the unrealistic assumption that the content wouldn't be tuned appropriately. Or the fact that it's a common occurrence to go into experts with i100+ dps that can't even break 200 to save their lives. Making runs as slow and painful as you say.

And I've said it several times already, I won't be kicking out the players in 110+ somehow hitting less than the Shield Oats paladin. But with a sanctioned parser I don't have to worry about getting banned and can comment or offer suggestions. If it's a situation where it's met with attitude then it would end up VERY MUCH THE SAME WAY PEOPLE BELITTLE/HARASS/ATTACK HEALERS AND TANKS IF THEY FUMBLE. Why is this such a difficult concept for you? The dps shouldn't be exempt from this "just because". That's a ridiculous reason and just reaffirms my point that there's a double standard.

But of course I guess it's fine. Let the dps autoattack and afk in dungeons, their feelings are too sensitive. Since that's the mindset 90% of the anti-parsers have in this thread. Afraid to see the reality if they're playing abysmally. Even the suggestion of the "DmC score screen" how many Ds and Cs should the dps see before they clue in? They should start tuning all the dungeons to be survivable with 4 dps doing less than 200 each. Since people with your mindset are part of the reason why most players dislike tanking and healing in this game, let's just remove them entirely, sounds like jolly good fun.