DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Welsper59]

It's funny how me pointing out a fact in this case, your current progress as it stands, is somehow mocking your progress. You're welcome to bring your viewpoint into the conversation but if it comes from someone that has little to no experience raiding, using a parser or meeting any DPS checks when content is relevant then it should be pointed out in the context of the conversation.

My years of raiding mostly came from Vanilla WoW to Mists and from FFXI (though parsers were not needed there due to how things worked). Vanilla raids. TBC raids. WotLK raids. Heroic mode raids once in a blue moon towards the end of my play. I feel gross for acknowledging you on that though. /sigh It's sad really. You don't even realize what you do in this conversation. I'll just point out a small part of it.

The fact you retort with someones progress as a means to shut them down means you look to diminish their points. Your snide way of saying it means to look down upon that as a tool to do this. So you're using something like that as a means to mock. You don't even understand how the language you speak works. See how mockery functions there by pointing something unnecessary out?

[Massterchef]

The fact you retort with someones progress as a means to shut them down means you look to diminish their points.

How does me pointing out that someone's view on a subject correlates with the fact that they don't push progression when it's relevant, somehow translate into me shutting them down and devaluing their opinion?

[Welsper59]

How does me pointing out that someone's view on a subject correlates with the fact that they don't push progression when it's relevant, somehow translate into me shutting them down and devaluing their opinion?

You're not addressing their concerns, which is the entire point of it. Unnecessarily stating things that have nothing to do with what they're talking about have nothing to do with what they're saying. You're looking to aggravate by stating these unnecessary things so you don't have to deal with it. While it may not be a concern to you, their points certainly hold more weight to them and the devs.

In the case of a point mentioned by you, the PS players lacking a means to parse is one thing, sure... I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. The fact remains though that, like trying to do endgame while max tier and new/relevant requires seeking out others to help you do this, so to should the idea of seeking out others to help you perform better. It's a minor handicap, at worst, for a PS player. It's something within their power to EASILY do when it comes to the context of endgame.

[Massterchef]

You're not addressing their concerns

I've commented on every point brought up and addressed every concern.. There's nothing wrong with not pushing content. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out that someone does not push content.

[Welsper59]

I've commented on every point brought up. There's nothing wrong with not pushing content. There's also nothing wrong with pointing out that someone does not push content.

Their concerns, in most cases, have nothing to do with the fact that harassment is still against ToS. It's the frequency and the eventual look to have another tool to separate content, in this case, a wall set up by players to do even content like EX fights by having unrealistic expectations (i.e. requiring FCoB gear numbers to do LEX). By frequency, I mean the increased occurrence of douchebags being douchebags.

Just because something is against ToS doesn't mean they won't do it. Case in point: parsers (due to requiring a 3rd party program)... bots, hacks, buying gil, current harassment or violations of safety and privacy, etc. Their side isn't saying that it won't happen anyway, but they're arguing that the frequency is minimal at most right now, and they (along with the devs) like it that way. Speaking from experience that's why, it will happen far more often. Just as you use someones raid progress in this game against them, so too will someone use their actual numbers against them (irrelevant of their potential because of circumstance like gear differences). It's just one more thing to make people hate the game and the community that exists within it. If the devs see fit to ever make it official, then so be it. The side that doesn't like it will have to deal or leave. It's as simple as that. It doesn't change the fact that the devs, as far as we know, still don't want it to be an official thing for similar reasons that the players here are expressing. It also doesn't change the fact that a simple workaround, like the one I suggested, exists and the devs are A-OK with it for the most part.

[Massterchef]

Irrelevant stuff

Where are the consequences currently and why aren't they affecting you and other people en mass?

Their concerns, in most cases, have nothing to do with the fact that harassment is still against ToS. It's the frequency and the eventual look to have another tool to separate content, in this case, a wall set up by players to do even content like EX fights by having unrealistic expectations (i.e. requiring FCoB gear numbers to do LEX). By frequency, I mean the increased occurrence of douchebags being douchebags.

Just because something is against ToS doesn't mean they won't do it. Case in point: parsers (due to requiring a 3rd party program)... bots, hacks, buying gil, current harassment or violations of safety and privacy, etc. Their side isn't saying that it won't happen anyway, but they're arguing that the frequency is minimal at most right now, and they (along with the devs) like it that way. Speaking from experience that's why, it will happen far more often. Just as you use someones raid progress in this game against them, so too will someone use their actual numbers against them (irrelevant of their potential because of circumstance like gear differences). It's just one more thing to make people hate the game and the community that exists within it. If the devs see fit to ever make it official, then so be it. The side that doesn't like it will have to deal or leave. It's as simple as that. It doesn't change the fact that the devs, as far as we know, still don't want it to be an official thing for similar reasons that the players here are expressing. It also doesn't change the fact that a simple workaround, like the one I suggested, exists and the devs are A-OK with it for the most part.

A wall only exists when there is a DPS check hence the reason people primarily in the parser camp that do use parsers typically participate in endgame where there are a # of DPS checks. The reason you won't see extremes such as the LEX example you provided is because when content is nerfed and when player(s) are overgeared for content, DPS optimization is not a requirement. We can speculate all day about how the community will handle parser's but as you can already tell by the masses that use them, people rarely abuse them in outdated content. And it has nothing to do with the fact that they are outlawed by the ToS which is my point.

[Welsper59]

A wall only exists when there is a DPS check hence the reason people primarily in the parser camp that do use parsers typically participate in endgame where there are a # of DPS checks. The reason you won't see extremes such as the LEX example you provided is because when content is nerfed and when player(s) are overgeared for content, DPS optimization is not a requirement. We can speculate all day about how the community will handle parser's but as you can already tell by the masses that use them, people rarely abuse them in outdated content. And it has nothing to do with the fact that they are outlawed by the ToS which is my point.

There's not a lot of speculation involved when history always repeats itself in this case. There's not a lot of speculation involved when I can provide evidence to showcase people doing bad things in similar ways. LEX was just an example. We could throw in Shiva, Ramuh, hardest 4-man dungeons, etc. It doesn't matter. People generally don't want to see, even if it doesn't directly affect them, further potential walls set up... especially unreasonable ones.

People rarely misuse them period because it's a matter that is against ToS. If mocking someones raid progress were against ToS, would you still freely do it? LOL That's the shield that the GMs/devs have to combat bad behavior. It has everything to do with the fact it's against ToS because of that.

That's the exact image that I was talking about in my post. I've seen literally nothing beyond it of anybody being reprimanded. Ever.

Speaking from experience of difficulty to "legally" reprimand people in a professional setting, the perpetrator playing dumb makes it even harder to act on first offense in many cases without previous AUPs (agreed upon procedures) or strict consequences ruled. This is why warnings are issued. Repeat offenses usually provide enough reasonable evidence that, without a shadow of a doubt, they are aware of and intentionally violating rules. I mean, if you truly believe what you say, you should test the waters and admit, in-game that you parse. Do a dungeon and gloat about your overwhelming numbers over others. Gloating is not an offense of itself afterall. If you encounter a GM, admit you are using a parse and tell them that you know nothing can happen to you as a result. See where that gets you, if you truly believe it.

[Kallera]

How does me pointing out that someone's view on a subject correlates with the fact that they don't push progression when it's relevant, somehow translate into me shutting them down and devaluing their opinion?

Like it or not, the inclusion of a public parser would affect their experience as well when the progression populace decides to go to other content, as well as those that approaching progression content and are sandwiched between the two groups.

The consequences of the parser will be brought out in all dungeon content. And affect each player in turn, regardless if they are intentionally bad.

Even in this thread people are making assumptions of players with just chat. When does "name and shame" become "giving statistics" and letting the chips fall where they may on what value in which dungeon invites consequence?

[Massterchef]

The consequences of the parser will be brought out in all dungeon content.

This would be what I mean by lack of perspective. There is already parser-use in Primals,DRs,Trials, pretty much all content. Where are the consequences currently and why aren't they affecting you and other people en mass?

[Kallera]

This would be what I mean by lack of perspective. There is already parser-use in Primals,DRs,Trials, pretty much all content. Where are the consequences currently and why aren't they affecting you and other people en mass?

It is still against the tos to admit to the usage of parsers and 3rd party tools, the inclusion of a official parser would likely remove that restriction for at least parsers, and invite the PC crowd to make improved parsers or other 3rd party tools that work with the parser.

Also the console audience is not small. There are a lot of people that do not use it, as well as many who do not want to risk using it.